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Attendance Tracker

This is a small side question possibly.

Disney seems to have a huge lifestyler community. Seriously, if the Disflix fiasco taught me anything, it's how large and loud the Disney fan community is. Universal has their fans, but I don't think the community is as big/obsessed/rich on average/etc as the lifestyle community. There's a ton of Disneybounding / retail / events and the like that seems precision-focused towards the lifestyle community. Disney seems to do a lot to cater to this community, especially with Club 33 coming up.

So, why doesn't Universal have a lifestyle community or is just that Universal doesn't cater to them as much?
Universal hasn't actively attempted to forge an emotional bond between the Brand and it's consumers. Disney has been brand building as THE family entertainment brand since the '50s. Those kids of the '60s are now fat and happy DVCers.

Universal really hasn't focused on that aspect. Universal has a fan community in spite of Universal's actions. They are just starting to figure out that banning your biggest fans who have a large social media footprint is probably counter productive. Universal, historically, has been pretty hostile towards it's biggest fans.
 
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This is a small side question possibly.

Disney seems to have a huge lifestyler community. Seriously, if the Disflix fiasco taught me anything, it's how large and loud the Disney fan community is. Universal has their fans, but I don't think the community is as big/obsessed/rich on average/etc as the lifestyle community. There's a ton of Disneybounding / retail / events and the like that seems precision-focused towards the lifestyle community. Disney seems to do a lot to cater to this community, especially with Club 33 coming up.

So, why doesn't Universal have a lifestyle community or is just that Universal doesn't cater to them as much?

First, let me stress, I think the Disney lifestyler community is loud, but not necessarily as large as you make it out to be. I forget who, some NYC sportscaster used to say hockey wasn't that big a sport. People would counter, "what, the Rangers routinely sell out the Garden for big games!" And his response was, "yeah, because every Ranger fan in the tri-state area is there!" Deep but not broad support. While I think that was an exaggeration, some truth to it, and I think the same applies to Disney lifestylers. It really is the same 2,000 (if that) people at every special event, every Star Wars Weekend, etc.

That said, I know plenty of lifestylers. @Disneyhead is right, Universal made very little effort to court them its first decade of operation. But I'll go further--I think lifestylers were a little bit scared of the park up the road. I know plenty of Disney fans who never set foot in UOR until Potter opened. It was seen as all roller coasters and heavy drinking and a scary Halloween event. They even make fun of Disney in their shows!

Potter is one of the cornerstones of "geek" (how I hate that term in this context) culture, along with Star Wars, Monty Python and maybe Dr. Who if you think you're smart and cultured. And of course Disney if you're a Disney fan. WWoHP made it socially acceptable for the "indoor kids" to go to UOR. It wasn't just roller coasters for jocks anymore.* It's taken years, but starting to see the effects of this influx at UOR--particularly on HHN, which has had its rough edges smoothed off (AoV would have been booed off stage 10 years ago). But this is all past 6 years or so.

But until Potter opened, Universal was viewed as a regional park--Six Flags Orlando, basically. Regional theme parks tend attract broad but not deep support. We'll buy an AP because it's cheap, but if Sea World buys a better coaster, we'll go there. Also, to be blunt, UOR wasn't terribly successful numbers-wise. I've heard from multiple sources had WWoHP underperformed, GE was ready to shutter the parks. Nobody grew up going there on special vacations and equated a move to Florida to be closer to the park with somehow recapturing their childhood. When people say WWoHP was a game-changer, it's not just because it drove attendance--it's because it changed the local fan community landscape.

* Yes, I know IoA opened as the most highly themed park in the U.S. I'm talking public perception--or at least Disney fan perception.

There's actually more sites that started out as Disney sites that get invited to Universal events than Universal focused sites, ironically.

I think this was sheer desperation. Any site lives and dies on content. And for the past decade (until just this year), WDW hasn't done a lot particularly newsworthy. The company held a press conference over new benches.

On the flip side, UOR seemed to figure out early access and some free drinks can buy you gobs of free, positive P.R.
 
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To be fair, the issues didn't reveal themselves until they let the masses in. I'm sure it was awesome getting free food and drinks with 150 people in the park.

I disagree to an extent. You're right on the capacity issues, but the little things--the 10-minute bus ride, the white speakers in an otherwise brown tunnel, the looming hotels that literally cast as shadow on the park, the view of this highway from the bar--got glossed over as well.
 
Question... do you think the lifting of AP blackout in August is for the impending closure of UoE and GMR or is this just an excuse to try and help prop up a rather flat summer? I'm betting on the latter, since neither attraction had any kind of significant attendance over the last few years even though GMR is seen as the last icon of the original Disney-MGM Studios. In reality, I personally don't think the lift of the blackout will do more than add some numbers to AK and MAYBE DHS. I don't see anyone lining up to ride UoE.
 
Question... do you think the lifting of AP blackout in August is for the impending closure of UoE and GMR or is this just an excuse to try and help prop up a rather flat summer? I'm betting on the latter, since neither attraction had any kind of significant attendance over the last few years even though GMR is seen as the last icon of the original Disney-MGM Studios. In reality, I personally don't think the lift of the blackout will do more than add some numbers to AK and MAYBE DHS. I don't see anyone lining up to ride UoE.


Of course. Lifting blackout dates to give fans a last chance to ride is just the PR spin.
 
Of course. Lifting blackout dates to give fans a last chance to ride is just the PR spin.
Yes, fully agree. That, we care for our fans feelings,, is just a smokescreen. Although stand by line times in a crowd calendar are just indicators of attendance, but not actual attendance, looking at Touring Plans WDW crowd calendar for July, there's been a good number of really slow crowd days at Epcot & DHS. Indication of a soft summer so far.
 
"Soft" is the best way to describe it.

Who here thinks that by 2019, WDW is going to have an attendance problem?

I do.

VB: OMG! There's too many people! It's a mob scene! This is a Disaster!
DHS: Hold my beer.

If lots of folks know Star Was is coming and they only go once or twice or every 3 to 4 years, they'll hold off. Then there's the two at once effect. They both pretty much are clones( DHS and DL) they should have differentiated with a third ride that's different at each park. And then, they'll be the hotel aspect.l that may hold some people back till done.
 
If lots of folks know Star Was is coming and they only go once or twice or every 3 to 4 years, they'll hold off. Then there's the two at once effect. They both pretty much are clones( DHS and DL) they should have differentiated with a third ride that's different at each park. And then, they'll be the hotel aspect.l that may hold some people back till done.

Yeah, we were really considering a trip this fall, but have shuttered that idea and are now looking at late 2019 or early 2020 depending on when SW and HP open.
 
Something I was thinking about: people are taking less vacation [1]. This is for a bunch of reasons, but mostly because vacation is expensive [2] and less people can afford it.

Honestly, how long can this golden age continue? There's only so much growth theme parks can achieve before there's not enough people left who can afford to go to the parks.

[1] The sad reason half of Americans don’t take all their paid vacation - MarketWatch
[2] Summer vacation? Lots of Americans say they can't afford it
 
Honestly, how long can this golden age continue? There's only so much growth theme parks can achieve before there's not enough people left who can afford to go to the parks.

I would say the international market would be the one to pick up the slack, but given how things are going in Brazil, U.K., and other former tourist-heavy countries I'm not so sure. Plus with both Disney and Universal building parks to cover several Asian markets I'm not sure where they can pull additional tourists to visit the parks.

On a separate note, is it reasonable to inquire about whether Disney plans to build anything Star Wars related in China/Japan? As a way to promote tourism while keeping the local parks strong, I wouldn't be surprised if they kept anything SW stateside to encourage an overseas trip or two.

Pulling a move from @zg44, here's some box office #s for the latest SW films in China/Japan (via BOM)

China
13 Star Wars: The Force Awakens $124,159,138 (2016)
22 Rogue One: A Star Wars Story $69,484,899 (2017)

Japan
1 Star Wars: The Force Awakens $97,862,640 (2015)
9 Rogue One: A Star Wars Story $39,164,663 (2016)

International
Star Wars: The Force Awakens $1,131,561,399
Rogue One: A Star Wars Story $523,879,949

I know it may be silly to compare B.O. numbers on a huge franchise such as SW, but these numbers could help support the notion that expanding the international market could be the ticket to booster lagging domestic tourism sales in the coming years.
 
I don't think anything will stop Brits going away. Orlando is such a hot destination now I can't recall so many of my friends heading over. As I mentioned before the price of a European holiday has shot up, reducing the difference between a cheaper European holiday and a Florida one. The pound to euro is also hellish worse than the pound to dollar at the moment.
 
...As I mentioned before the price of a European holiday has shot up, reducing the difference between a cheaper European holiday and a Florida one.
Agree. Same price villa and flights London-Kissimmee than same London-Greece (though excludes £1,500 for park tickets!)
 
Something I was thinking about: people are taking less vacation [1]. This is for a bunch of reasons, but mostly because vacation is expensive [2] and less people can afford it.

Honestly, how long can this golden age continue? There's only so much growth theme parks can achieve before there's not enough people left who can afford to go to the parks.

[1] The sad reason half of Americans don’t take all their paid vacation - MarketWatch
[2] Summer vacation? Lots of Americans say they can't afford it
One of the things that makes this hard to measure is that there's a "substitution effect" going on; instead of going farther out (i.e. overseas), many people in the US are looking for vacations closer to home. Of course overseas that effect (and a stronger dollar) may make them less likely to come to the US.

In the case of Orlando and LA, there's a couple of factors that make them more immune to the situation that you're talking about:
1) the single most important factor in the continued growth of theme parks in those 2 markets has traditionally been the population growth in Florida and California along with their nearby states, and
2) the massive investments in the theme parks by Universal (starting with Harry Potter) and then matched by Disney (investing across their set of theme parks), has only helped to push Orlando (and LA, but much more of an impact in Orlando given 2x as many parks as LA) up the ranks of US based vacation destinations.

So it's hard to really measure what's going on; in part one thing that's noticeable is that the growth of many regional parks has stalled while Universal has seen its attendance double over the past decade, etc.

I would venture that we aren't really anywhere close to seeing a peak in Orlando or LA's theme parks. We really won't see a peak for at least a decade in my opinion if only because continued US population movement as well as massive investments by Disney/Universal will continue to build them as destinations...

At some point though, instead of growing attendance at the parks, it will be more economical to see prices rise for the theme park operators because the attendance numbers are starting to reach levels that are near the parks' theoretical maximums.
 
Attnedence in olrando may be some what of a cycle right now. Tourism is the driving industry and the local market is expanding rapidly around it. More locals especially given florida rates can increase the base attendance. Increased attendance means more investment which means more tourists and then leads to more locals.
 
Attnedence in olrando may be some what of a cycle right now. Tourism is the driving industry and the local market is expanding rapidly around it. More locals especially given florida rates can increase the base attendance. Increased attendance means more investment which means more tourists and then leads to more locals.

The US is in a scary bubble time. The economy is going to come crashing hard in the near future, and that is going to impact the theme parks in a big way. It may benefit international tourists as the parks offer special rates to make up for the American tourists that are hunkering down and waiting for the economy to improve.
 
Well, i'll offer this. Southwest went 3x weekend from MEM to MCO on weekend in March to coincide with Spring Break. Those flights have nearly double in price two weeks after the schedule extension and are nearly sold out this long out.
 
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