Avatar: The Way Of Water

[OLSinFLA]

@OLSinFLA - I had to merge all three of those posts together so make sure that you use the "quote" button on each post that you want to respond to and then you'll be able to insert all of the posts into the box to reply to them all at once instead of in multiple posts. It helps keeps the forums clean.


True, but...

Spoiler

Quaritch only wanted him out of the Pandoran forests. He essentially forced Jake and his family out as it was no longer safe for his family or the Omaticaya clan for them to stay.

The forests is where the RDA were planning to build the city where regular citizens from earth who come there will live. This seems like a take on how the billionaire class is profiting off of going to space now and how they would love to colonize Mars down the line if possible.

On another note... I got to thinking about how they could possibly make a D+ show out of this franchise. You know Disney would want to if it was truly feasible, but to have it live up to the movie standards as far as CGI would be highly expensive. Then I thought about what if they did something like Andor/Rogue One and did a prequel set on earth? They could have it centered around Jake's brother before he died and the RDA as they were getting ready to head up the Avatar project in Pandora. Of course, Jakes brother would just be Sam Worthington again as they were twins, but I suppose they could de-age him and make it work. Not sure how good that would be but honestly something on earth is really the only chance of happening with this franchise on D+.

They wanted to make sure he 1) couldn't come back and 2) since he's pretty effective at starting and leading resistance (see: Avatar 1) he's still a target

 

[OrlandoGuy]

They wanted to make sure he 1) couldn't come back and 2) since he's pretty effective at starting and leading resistance (see: Avatar 1) he's still a target

But…if he were to come back they’re in the same position as they were in by chasing him.

 

[Nick]

I’m fine with it all because the movie was so enjoyable. But there were some holes and questions I have that I’d love to hear James Cameron talk about.

 

[OLSinFLA]

But…if he were to come back they’re in the same position as they were in by chasing him.

I think Jake is going for option #2

 

[Nick]

So some things with this film are starting to come into a slight bit of focus. For now, the best comp looks to be 2016's Rogue One: A Star War's Story. This is an extremely relevant comp as well as Rogue One was the last big movie to open when Christmas fell on a Sunday. The Friday-Monday second weekend totals that year saw Rogue One bring in $96.5M/

Rogue One had a higher opening Thursday preview/Friday at $71M compared to The Way of Water's $53.2M, however from there things are pretty similar. Rogue One's total's for the next 4 days were $46.3M (sat), $37.6M (sun), $17.5 (mon), $17.5 (tues). TWOW Sat-Tues was $44.3M (sat), $36.5M (sun), $16.2M (mon) and estimated $17.5M (tues).

We'll see if this trend continues going forward. Rogue One made $532M domestic which tbh, I think would be fine for TWOW, as there's one key difference between the two films so far, which is that Rogue One made 50.4% of its worldwide gross from the domestic market. It's still early, but The Way of Water is currently only making 30.2% of its gross from the domestic box office (and the first film made 27.3% domestic in its initial run). So just to do some quick math, if the percentages were to roughly hold up and TWOW finished with $510M, the international gross would be $1.7B. If it has stronger legs than Rogue One, it could push closer to $2B.

‘Avatar: The Way Of Water’ Scores Best Tuesday Of 2022 With $18.3M, Domestic Rises To $168M+ – Box Office

'Avatar: The Way Of Water' Could Be Heading For Tuesday 2022 Record: Box Office

deadline.com

 

[OrlandoGuy]

So some things with this film are starting to come into a slight bit of focus. For now, the best comp looks to be 2016's Rogue One: A Star War's Story. This is an extremely relevant comp as well as Rogue One was the last big movie to open when Christmas fell on a Sunday. The Friday-Monday second weekend totals that year saw Rogue One bring in $96.5M/

Rogue One had a higher opening Thursday preview/Friday at $71M compared to The Way of Water's $53.2M, however from there things are pretty similar. Rogue One's total's for the next 4 days were $46.3M (sat), $37.6M (sun), $17.5 (mon), $17.5 (tues). TWOW Sat-Tues was $44.3M (sat), $36.5M (sun), $16.2M (mon) and estimated $17.5M (tues).

We'll see if this trend continues going forward. Rogue One made $532M domestic which tbh, I think would be fine for TWOW, as there's one key difference between the two films so far, which is that Rogue One made 50.4% of its worldwide gross from the domestic market. It's still early, but The Way of Water is currently only making 30.2% of its gross from the domestic box office (and the first film made 27.3% domestic in its initial run). So just to do some quick math, if the percentages were to roughly hold up and TWOW finished with $510M, the international gross would be $1.7B. If it has stronger legs than Rogue One, it could push closer to $2B.

‘Avatar: The Way Of Water’ Scores Best Tuesday Of 2022 With $18.3M, Domestic Rises To $168M+ – Box Office

'Avatar: The Way Of Water' Could Be Heading For Tuesday 2022 Record: Box Office

deadline.com

I think what’s kept Avatar “quiet” (compared to the other winter tentpoles it’s being held against) are two things:

1. As you pointed out, need to watch in premium formats—there are simply less of those so the money coming in through those theaters will be a slower trickle

2. Nobody caring about spoilers. Nothing insane happens in this movie and even if it did who would care? You can’t spoil visuals, you just gotta see them. That keeps the opening from being as frontloaded as a Spider-Man or Force Awakens.

I think Point 2 is probably why people are making Rogue One comps, because that was a movie that everyone knew the ending to already. Avatar will eventually outpace it (IMO) with stronger legs due to continued interest through the holiday and insistence on paying for premium formats even on repeat viewings.

 

[Evan]

Saw this last night. Wow.

THIS is cinema! Quickest 3 hours, a visual feat, and powerful thematic moments.

The mom and her calf didn’t have to hit so hard. During that scene I was plotting the demise of the human race.

 

[Nick]

Saw this last night. Wow.

THIS is cinema! Quickest 3 hours, a visual feat, and powerful thematic moments.

The mom and her calf didn’t have to hit so hard. During that scene I was plotting the demise of the human race.

Are you talking about Kate Winslet's character (Ronal)?

 

[TheGentTrent]

Are you talking about Kate Winslet's character (Ronal)?

I think Evan's referring to the Tulkun.

 

[Evan]

I think Evan's referring to the Tulkun.

that’s the one! The Tulkun.Ooof! I was feeling all sorts of ways during that… scene.

 

[Lucky Planet]

This movie is being boycotted on Twitter by a bunch of people over racism which could hurt box office, the article mentions cultural appropriation, the casting of white actors being negative,
But, is the movie offensive in that way?
I don't remember any boycotts over avatar 1 or any claims of racism.
( This is being covered by mainstream news websites too. It's trending ) it's all over Instagram too.

From all the spoilers I read, I don't understand. Didn't sound like the story had bad things

 

[Nick]

This movie is being boycotted on Twitter by a bunch of people over racism which could hurt box office, the article mentions cultural appropriation, the casting of white actors being negative,
But, is the movie offensive in that way?
I don't remember any boycotts over avatar 1 or any claims of racism.
( This is being covered by mainstream news websites too. It's trending ) it's all over Instagram too.

From all the spoilers I read, I don't understand. Didn't sound like the story had bad things

Kate Winslet plays a character who is a part of a tribe based on Māori and Polynesian cultures. Tbh, I fail to see why she was a necessary casting in that role, especially since her husband in the role opposite of her is played by Cliff Curtis, which is great casting.

That all said, the film will be fine and is on pace to make $500M+ domestic and $1.7B+. It currently is already at $609M WW. Twitter “cancellations” aren’t much of a thing. Twitter has a relatively small user base that is actually active.

 

[shiekra38]

This movie is being boycotted on Twitter by a bunch of people over racism which could hurt box office, the article mentions cultural appropriation, the casting of white actors being negative,
But, is the movie offensive in that way?
I don't remember any boycotts over avatar 1 or any claims of racism.
( This is being covered by mainstream news websites too. It's trending ) it's all over Instagram too.

From all the spoilers I read, I don't understand. Didn't sound like the story had bad things

They didn't cast any native Na'vi in the film

 

[youhow2]

Kate Winslet plays a character who is a part of a tribe based on Māori and Polynesian cultures. Tbh, I fail to see why she was a necessary casting in that role, especially since her husband in the role opposite of her is played by Cliff Curtis, which is great casting.

That all said, the film will be fine and is on pace to make $500M+ domestic and $1.7B+. It currently is already at $609M WW. Twitter “cancellations” aren’t much of a thing. Twitter has a relatively small user base that is actually active.

Also being boycotted for being "Woke", Which, I haven't even cared to do a google search to tune into that controversy, but I see it on a bunch of facebook post/ads about the movie when I read comments to weigh public perception on the flick.


Either way, I don't think there's any real controversy. Kate Winslet playing a subspecies of blue aliens on a fictional moon planet that loosely resembles some earth cultures is a pretty hard reach for anyone screaming "cultural appropriation". Not to mention she is also reuniting with a director who helped her lead in a career defining role in the first movie to do over a billion. Certainly could have been a better, more sensitive casting if you really want to lean into it, but for sure its understandable. Not to mention she also performed in the role very well too.


Anyways yeah, the film is looking good. I don't know that it will have the legs the first one did, but, interest is there, and it's still early in the holiday season. Not to mention doesn't seem to be a too much competition.

I don't know if it's going to be a "harry potter" or "Star Wars" type franchise, but it might still be a bit too early to tell. Very curious about what the next one will do, and very, very curious about the 4th.

 

[Legacy]

This movie is being boycotted on Twitter by a bunch of people over racism which could hurt box office, the article mentions cultural appropriation, the casting of white actors being negative,
But, is the movie offensive in that way?
I don't remember any boycotts over avatar 1 or any claims of racism.
( This is being covered by mainstream news websites too. It's trending ) it's all over Instagram too.

From all the spoilers I read, I don't understand. Didn't sound like the story had bad things

It’s partially casting. It’s mostly stemming from some comments Cameron made about the original movie (and overall concept of the franchise):

“This was a driving force for me in the writing of 'Avatar' — I couldn't help but think that if they [the Lakota Sioux] had had a time-window and they could see the future … and they could see their kids committing suicide at the highest suicide rates in the nation … because they were hopeless and they were a dead-end society — which is what is happening now — they would have fought a lot harder.”

Basically, Avatar is the brain-child of a White Savior complex and a dangerously simplistic understanding of both the American colonization of Indigenous People and current Indigenous economic and political challenges. This, the First People are boycotting.

James Cameron's old comments prompt Native American boycott of new 'Avatar' sequel

A social media campaign led by Native Americans calls for a boycott of James Cameron's "Avatar: The Way of Water" over its appropriation of Indigenous culture.

news.yahoo.com

 

[Nick]

I don't know if it's going to be a "harry potter" or "Star Wars" type franchise, but it might still be a bit too early to tell. Very curious about what the next one will do, and very, very curious about the 4th.

As far as rabid fandom goes, it’ll never be like Star Wars, Potter, Marvel or DC. This is a franchise made for the masses and more general audiences who aren’t into constant speculation, they love the visual spectacle.

However, based on what many people are saying, I do think this film did its job in making people look forward to future films and starting to actually care about what happens with character storylines going forward. The first film didn’t have that because it was meant to be a one and done film, so they essentially wrapped most things up whereas this film has a lot more loose ends.

Kate Winslet playing a subspecies of blue aliens on a fictional moon planet that loosely resembles some earth cultures is a pretty hard reach for anyone screaming "cultural appropriation". Not to mention she is also reuniting with a director who helped her lead in a career defining role in the first movie to do over a billion. Certainly could have been a better, more sensitive casting if you really want to lean into it, but for sure its understandable. Not to mention she also performed in the role very well too.

Cameron has said that the "Water People" are based on the Maori and Polynesian culture as I said. I get having Winslet back teaming up with Cameron, she's a great actress. She gave a great performance in that one scene she had real dialogue. But she could've been cast in a different role. There has to have been a much more appropriate casting choice than what he decided to go with and Winslet is not the only one that is an issue. It's a lot of the cast, which is what happens when you appropriate, but the actors are all blue people anyway.

I love the movie and i'm a fan of the first movie, but to say that some of it isn't problematic simply because he's reuniting with an actor is just not a valid excuse to not cast correctly. It's very clear that the Omaticaya Clan was based on Native American culture and it's not hard to figure out that the Metkayina Clan (water na'vi) are based on oceanic cultures and for the most part the actual actors do not reflect what the material is based off of.

Also, Jake is full on white savior in the first movie and still sort of in the role in the second, which isn't even based on Sam Worthington being white, it's based on Jake Sully's human version of himself being white and then coming in and trying to save things but screwing things up time and time again for the Na'vi because out of all people, the human turned Na'vi is the leader. This while in TWOW, Neytiri hates humans to the point where she's willing to kill Spider.

Again, the movies are enjoyable and I like them. But i'd be lying if I didn't admit that there were some problematic elements baked in that most people (including myself) overlook because the Na'vi are Blue so it's hard to see it until you actually think about it for a bit.

 

[shiekra38]

It’s partially casting. It’s mostly stemming from some comments Cameron made about the original movie (and overall concept of the franchise):

“This was a driving force for me in the writing of 'Avatar' — I couldn't help but think that if they [the Lakota Sioux] had had a time-window and they could see the future … and they could see their kids committing suicide at the highest suicide rates in the nation … because they were hopeless and they were a dead-end society — which is what is happening now — they would have fought a lot harder.”

Basically, Avatar is the brain-child of a White Savior complex and a dangerously simplistic understanding of both the American colonization of Indigenous People and current Indigenous economic and political challenges. This, the First People are boycotting.

James Cameron's old comments prompt Native American boycott of new 'Avatar' sequel

A social media campaign led by Native Americans calls for a boycott of James Cameron's "Avatar: The Way of Water" over its appropriation of Indigenous culture.

news.yahoo.com

I'm being told the fairies from Fern Gully are also boycotting

Cameron is finished

 

[Lucky Planet]

Also being boycotted for being "Woke", Which, I haven't even cared to do a google search to tune into that controversy, but I see it on a bunch of facebook post/ads about the movie when I read comments to weigh public perception on the flick.


Either way, I don't think there's any real controversy. Kate Winslet playing a subspecies of blue aliens on a fictional moon planet that loosely resembles some earth cultures is a pretty hard reach for anyone screaming "cultural appropriation". Not to mention she is also reuniting with a director who helped her lead in a career defining role in the first movie to do over a billion. Certainly could have been a better, more sensitive casting if you really want to lean into it, but for sure its understandable. Not to mention she also performed in the role very well too.


Anyways yeah, the film is looking good. I don't know that it will have the legs the first one did, but, interest is there, and it's still early in the holiday season. Not to mention doesn't seem to be a too much competition.

I don't know if it's going to be a "harry potter" or "Star Wars" type franchise, but it might still be a bit too early to tell. Very curious about what the next one will do, and very, very curious about the 4th.

Personally in my small circle, as far as personal anecdote goes, I know at least 4 people that aren't seeing it. One of them being my cousin.
And as far as the bigger picture, from people I follow online, at least 20 are speaking against it

I'm not saying this can hurt the movie that much, but I was surprised. Because every major news outlet wrote a piece on it for their entertainment section. I see people talking about it, but without knowing what was inside the film. It was surprising. ( Early reviews never mentioned any problems)
It might have started with a couple of tweets, but big news outlets made it grow lol. It amplified the message. But no one goes into specifics.

One thing that made me laugh was people asking to support indigenous movies and they were recommending PREY lol. ( Which I personally loved) to watch Prey instead of avatar

 

[Nick]

Personally in my small circle, as far as personal anecdote goes, I know at least 4 people that aren't seeing it. One of them being my cousin.
And as far as the bigger picture, from people I follow online, at least 20 are speaking against it

I'm not saying this can hurt the movie that much, but I was surprised. Because every major news outlet wrote a piece on it for their entertainment section. I see people talking about it, but without knowing what was inside the film. It was surprising. ( Early reviews never mentioned any problems)
It might have started with a couple of tweets, but big news outlets made it grow lol. It amplified the message. But no one goes into specifics.

One thing that made me laugh was people asking to support indigenous movies and they were recommending PREY lol. ( Which I personally loved) to watch Prey instead of avatar

I don't want to sound like people aren't boycotting the film with what i'm gonna say. I fully do think there are people and if they want to I get why and support that. I've looked into it more since my prior post and see a few things on it.

But at the same time, I also think, as I said earlier (and sort of like you said), it was a few tweets. Media outlets are always looking to pickup stories to run with. Is there a protest of sorts among a specific group? Like I said, I have no doubt. But I also don't think it's as big as anyone is making it sound either (media included). Like you also said, the media amplifies things (this is how false rumors and news spreads a lot of the time).

Just like how news stories that are completely false can spread and it can sound completely legitimate because someone saw it on a website which was citing a tweet (and the website has a much larger reach than twitter), the media will also amplify how big a protest such as this is. I do think it's good that these minority communities are being supported and this be publicized because again, I just don't see what for instance, Kate Winslet's purpose is in her role. It's just taking away from someone else who could be getting a breakthrough role.

I guess my point really is, don't expect this to hurt the film too much as unless you actively know about this, most people are distracted with the holidays right now anyway and not paying attention to these types of things. The thing i'm surprised by is that Cameron was criticized for Avatar being a white savior movie and appropriating native american cultures in the first film so i'm surprised he didn't learn from his mistakes and if you are going to base a water tribe off of a culture, at least cast the actors properly.

 

[Legacy]

One thing that made me laugh was people asking to support indigenous movies and they were recommending PREY lol. ( Which I personally loved) to watch Prey instead of avatar

Well, yeah. Prey features a largely indigenous cast played by all indigenous actors and tells a story that is true to ancient indigenous cultures and attitudes without minimizing or demonizing them. Most indigenous advocates are huge proponents for the film because of how respectful it was to their cultures.