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Cars area coming to Magic Kingdom

  • Thread starter Thread starter Nick
  • Start date Start date Aug 11, 2024
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Parkscope Joe

Parkscope Joe

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  • Mar 11, 2025
  • #321
DrStarlander said:
The Liberty Belle could have been docked permanently down by Tiana's as a dining location, or even a highly themed lounge.
Click to expand...

The old Jim Hill rumors about Villains Land incorporated this, though in that story the villains had comadreared the boat and crashed it.
 
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mccgavin

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  • Mar 11, 2025
  • #322
MartyMcFly said:
Not sure if ive missed the boat on this but wanted to express something that i havent seen articulated, and if Disney does read this forum it might be worth seeing.


I grew up on Disney. My family crossed the Atlantic multiple times a year just to be there. It wasn’t just a theme park, it felt alive, like it existed even when I wasn’t there. The nostalgia was powerful, and we kept coming back. Even when I turned 18, could have chosen anywhere, I went with my mates, Disney was the focal point of the trip. So even when I was an adult (kind of) i still chose disney, that is a powerful hold.

But I haven’t set foot in a Disney park since 2018. Every time I go to Florida now, I stay on Universal property. And with the removal of Rivers of America, that shift feels permanent. When I have kids, they’ll grow up on Universal, not Disney.


Thi isn’t just about one attraction being removed. It’s about Disney losing the plot entirely. The park was never just about rides. If I wanted pure thrills, I’d go to a Six Flags (well probably just Uni now although i dont even like traditional theme parks). Magic Kingdom was special because it felt like a place that existed beyond the moment you were standing in it. The detail, the atmosphere, the way it felt like a living, breathing world, that’s what made Disney Disney. That’s what made generations of families commit to it.

Disney doesn’t seem to get that anymore. It’s not about creating immersive worlds, it’s about slapping an IP onto everything and calling it a day. It used to be that an IP was just a tool to build a world, to create that sense of place. Now, the IP is the attraction, and everything else is an afterthought. It’s lazy. It’s short-sighted. And it’s why people like me, who should have been lifelong customers, are checking out.

If Disney keeps making these kinds of decisions, they’re not just losing a few visitors, they’re losing entire generations of families. My parents spent hundreds of thousands on Disney, and I probably would have too. But not anymore.

The thing is, they already had me. I was theirs to lose. They didn’t need to win me over, they had a massive head start, deep roots in my childhood. But now? Those roots will be in Universal instead. Anyway this is obviously anecdotal but i feel lile my family as customers, are the customers that may have the biggest impact. Like imagine 10-20 years of me taking my kids to Disney, there is a world where that would have happened.

What will be funny in 20 years from now, will be when Universal rips out the lagoon at Islands of Adventure. Will my kid be posting something just like this.

Edit: also looking at that mock up of the ride above makes me think universal needs to rip out kong and build a jurassic park jeep ride asap, and just make sure its better than cars, that would be a supreme move, expert trolling.

"Jurassic park off-road adventure."
Click to expand...
I couldn't have said this better myself. Me and my family used to go to the Disney Parks years since I was a small child, but based on the constant stream of bad decisions they've made over the last few years, we mostly feel apathetic towards the parks and their future.

I used to think that the Universal Parks were "beneath" Disney, but I found a deep love and appreciation of UOR when I spent a year living in Orlando, more so than any other park in the area. Between going to Universal parks on both coasts, and engaging with these forums, it's refreshing to be excited for major theme park projects again, especially with the hype leading up to the opening of Epic Universe.

AvoidTIMtation said:
This whole thing reminds me of when Frozen at Epcot replaced a ride that nobody cared about until it was announced they were closing it, but Rivers of America isn't even really an attraction.
Click to expand...
In hindsight, the conversion of Maelstrom to Frozen was a bad move, as it stripped the Norway pavilion of any sense of identity. While Remy was added somewhat tastefully, as to not disrupt the theme of France, Norway is now essentially just the "Frozen" pavilion now. This also prevent the franchise from getting a properly built-out land like in Hong Kong and France, which it arguably deserves based on its popularity.

If the ride didn't resonate with you, that's fair, but I personally miss it quite a lot, as it was once my favorite attraction within the park. It isn't as talked about as some other former attractions, but it certainly still has a fanbase out there.
 
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OrlLover

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  • Mar 11, 2025
  • #323
saint.piss said:
I think it would've been an easier pill to swallow if they had picked a better IP to replace it imo. Personally I wouldn't have picked Cars. Something like Zootopia, Moana, Coco, Big Hero 6, Tangled... A lot of different options. I get Cars aesthetically speaking fits in the most for Frontierland but idk. I just hope it's worth losing this beautiful area of the park. If the land is just as beautiful and the rides are great people won't care anymore. I mean some will but there's just some people you can never please unfortunately
Click to expand...
This is my opinion as well because I didn’t want to believe the rumors of Cars coming to the MK.

However if they are able to emulate what we see in the concept art I will be more than satisfied aesthetically speaking.
 
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AvoidTIMtation

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  • Mar 11, 2025
  • #324
mccgavin said:
If the ride didn't resonate with you, that's fair, but I personally miss it quite a lot, as it was once my favorite attraction within the park. It isn't as talked about as some other former attractions, but it certainly still has a fanbase out there.
Click to expand...
I didn't hate Maelstrom, my point was that this always happens when something new replaces something old (which i understand in some cases) and with RoA I guess it's hard for me to "get it". It feels like a lot of fans will truly never be happy. We all know Disney has gotten flak for *years* about resting on their laurels, not building anything new and talking about blue sky stuff that will never get built. Fans will say "we want new stuff!", they finally announce new stuff, and fans are like "wait no not like that!" LOL
 
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belloq87

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  • Mar 11, 2025
  • #325
AvoidTIMtation said:
I didn't hate Maelstrom, my point was that this always happens when something new replaces something old (which i understand in some cases) and with RoA I guess it's hard for me to "get it". It feels like a lot of fans will truly never be happy. We all know Disney has gotten flak for *years* about resting on their laurels, not building anything new and talking about blue sky stuff that will never get built. Fans will say "we want new stuff!", they finally announce new stuff, and fans are like "wait no not like that!" LOL
Click to expand...
Part of the annoyance in this case also comes from Disney -- during the previous D23 -- talking about major MK expansions coming "beyond Big Thunder," so the expectation was being set that big projects would be pushing out the boundaries of the park as we knew it.

Cut to two years later, and suddenly the scope has shifted to removing the aesthetic heart of Frontierland/Liberty Square (if not the entire theme park) instead of building fresh on the unused land they'd previously teased.
 
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mccgavin

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  • Mar 11, 2025
  • #326
AvoidTIMtation said:
I didn't hate Maelstrom, my point was that this always happens when something new replaces something old (which i understand in some cases) and with RoA I guess it's hard for me to "get it". It feels like a lot of fans will truly never be happy. We all know Disney has gotten flak for *years* about resting on their laurels, not building anything new and talking about blue sky stuff that will never get built. Fans will say "we want new stuff!", they finally announce new stuff, and fans are like "wait no not like that!" LOL
Click to expand...
When looking at the Disney Parks fandom as a whole, I don't think there is a general consensus of what the community actually wants. This is such a vast and varied community that spans many generations and demographics, and with a brand that is so heavily tied with nostalgia, different groups of people are going to value different things. Personally, the Rivers of America is a lot more important to me than MuppetVision, but I know many others would disagree.

As for expansion, I can definitely understand where the criticism is coming from, as there is not a compelling reason that many of these new projects are replacing beloved aspects of Walt Disney World when it has "the blessing of size". Mission Space, the current version of the Imagination pavilion, Tomorrowland (especially the Tomorrowland Speedway), and Animation Courtyard, feel like prime candidates for redevelopment, along with the unutilized expansion plots that exist at all 4 parks.
 
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  • Mar 11, 2025
  • #327
Parkscope Joe said:
Of course. Dynamic showed it off years ago and there's been no developments on it. Considering this is the company that brought us the VFX coaster are we shocked? I just don't think the technology is there yet for such a trackless ride vehicle.
Click to expand...

Yeah, in the back of my head the trackless concept of this seemed like a nightmare in more ways than one. So I'm not bothered they're going for a tracked option.

As for those who are out there, it wouldn't be the first time that a project has undergone changes here and there, nor will it be the last. Granted, it would help if Disney didn't announce their projects way too early, but they honestly have the worst habit of doing that.
 
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OrlLover

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  • Mar 11, 2025
  • #328
mccgavin said:
replacing beloved
Click to expand...
Yes that’s very debatable but otherwise I agree with you.
 
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Steptwice

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  • Mar 12, 2025
  • #329
We are getting a WHOLE NEW LAND behind of MK. Why anyone is complaining is beyond me. This is so damn cool I can not wait ! (And I am a Uni fan through and through but a Disney villain land just takes themselves to the next level that they need ! Super pumped for it !
 
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Cwoolboy

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What would make this hurt just a little bit less is if they announced they were doing away with the Tomorrowland Speedway and would use that plot of land for a future expansion. The Cast Members abhor working Speedway because of the unhealthy amount of fumes they are subjected to on a daily basis (fumes which easily spread to the surrounding areas, affecting guests as well), there is a total and complete lack of shade, and the attraction is literally only popular with VERY young ones. Plus, with the news Cars attraction moving in, there's really no reason I can think of to keep this relic around.
 
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UPSguy

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  • Mar 13, 2025
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Cwoolboy said:
What would make this hurt just a little bit less is if they announced they were doing away with the Tomorrowland Speedway and would use that plot of land for a future expansion. The Cast Members abhor working Speedway because of the unhealthy amount of fumes they are subjected to on a daily basis (fumes which easily spread to the surrounding areas, affecting guests as well), there is a total and complete lack of shade, and the attraction is literally only popular with VERY young ones. Plus, with the news Cars attraction moving in, there's really no reason I can think of to keep this relic around.
Click to expand...
I can see them doing what TDL did and splitting that plot of land between Fantasyland Expansion and Tomorrowland expansion.
 
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UniversalRBLX

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  • Mar 13, 2025
  • #332
Cwoolboy said:
What would make this hurt just a little bit less is if they announced they were doing away with the Tomorrowland Speedway and would use that plot of land for a future expansion. The Cast Members abhor working Speedway because of the unhealthy amount of fumes they are subjected to on a daily basis (fumes which easily spread to the surrounding areas, affecting guests as well), there is a total and complete lack of shade, and the attraction is literally only popular with VERY young ones. Plus, with the news Cars attraction moving in, there's really no reason I can think of to keep this relic around.
Click to expand...
I am expecting that to happen during "phase 2" of this turbocharging.

1741910634107.png
(This is unofficial, just an example).

Where 15-17 is on this map, can easily house a dark ride, flat ride and more retail/dining.

When they made it clear that Cars was receiving a 2nd more child friendly experience, it was a hint that the Speedway would be striked afterward.

Of course, so many things can change between now and the inevitable replacement.
 
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LPCaptainDeath

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mccgavin said:
When looking at the Disney Parks fandom as a whole, I don't think there is a general consensus of what the community actually wants. This is such a vast and varied community that spans many generations and demographics, and with a brand that is so heavily tied with nostalgia, different groups of people are going to value different things. Personally, the Rivers of America is a lot more important to me than MuppetVision, but I know many others would disagree.
Click to expand...
I was coming here to say something pretty close to this but there are like 9 other posts that echoed feelings I've felt all the while being mixed across the board, and i more or less think that's just how the world works. There are two sides to every coin and neither side is right: it's all just a coin.

I don't know how old some of y'all are or where some of you are from or how often you go to Disney but i grew up in a travel agent family and got to tour new hotels before they were open to the public as a kid, back when they REALLY needed and valued TA's and pretty much relied on them to not go bankrupt. There are photos where my mom is pregnant with me at the Contemporary and then they came back six months and took another photo in the same spot and -boom- there i am, little bean; Picked fresh like Disney intended. I have vivid memories of things like walking through Animal Kingdom Lodge with NO ONE in sight. It's surreal. Especially the things that sound weird to talk about in hindsight; Goosebumps and TMNT in Hollywood Studios, anyone? I'm now in my 30's and I've been to Disney more times than I can count and I don't even live in Florida so it's always been a process for me to make the trip my entire life.

Context aside, if there's ONE thing we've seen that's become INCREASINGLY and FORCEABLY evident is that Walt's dream of "(the parks) will continue to grow as long as there is imagination left in the world," has been vastly misinterpreted by those in charge for better and for worse. It has become a gimmick for whatever change whomever is in charge wants to justify; I'm mostly looking at Eisner and Iger, here, but it's not like the buck stops there. Unfortunately, capitalism is to blame (yada yada yada), and the money machine that Disney has become also unfortunately knows where their chips lie. They do not venture into the imaginary the same way they once did. They do not champion innovation the same way they once did. It has simply become intellectual property. The property exists in one medium. It's successful. They bring it to the parks. Rinse and repeat. We are LONG past the point of this being a NEW argument to anyone by any means. Tiki Room gets Zazu and Iago. Alien Encounter becomes Stitch's Great Escape. Universe of Energy becomes Guardians of the Galaxy. You'd have to love the taste of dirt to not see this for what it is, but I'm not saying that I expect anyone to like it, either. I just ALSO expect people to play favorites, and that may just be me cause i do not give a flying fart about Rivers of America, but let's not be hypocrites...

Disney is NOT INDEPENDANT OF THIS by any means. Universal replaced Jaws with Harry Potter and y'all love to talk about that (the childhood trauma in me refuses) and we all know Spielberg misses E.T. in Hollywood. Even something like Six Flags just blew up Kingda Ka and who knows what it's going to become cause i have no clue. Change is not new and should not be new for anyone and you can look back on whatever you want with whatever tinted shades you want, it isn't going to stop it from happening. C'est la vie. Change is one of the only weapons in a company's arsenal to keep things fresh and keep the public interest and attendance coming. I swear there's an alternate realty out there where Defunctland is an actual thing and it desperately needs a fresh coat of paint because some of y'all are seriously living in the past cause some of that stuff is outdated for a reason and absolutely 100% needed to go and should never come back and that's why things like Rivers of America becomes CARS in the first place... *sigh* You aren't the target audience anymore, y'all.

Take a deep breath, cause the only thing to blame are both in the mirror and in the hearts of the the ravenous horde of consumers.
Maybe this is the TA side of me coming out to see how many FIRST TRIP TO DISNEY vacations i book, but KIDS are always going to be Disney's game and they hit em while they're young. Point fingers at whoever you want, protest changes at any corner, it really -truly- does not matter because the 'MAGIC' Disney supplies has ALWAYS been subjective and the litmus test is now the baby with the ipad, my guys. For every person sitting there saying "Splash Mountain was XYZ to me" is not seeing the "Tiana's Bayou adventure is XYZ to me" for the NEW generation. Kids are going to grow up with Monster's Inc and not Muppet Vision -it hurts me, it brings a little mist to my eyes at the idea of going to Hollywood Studios in the future- but it is ALSO ignoring the people who have never been to the parks or who are going to grow with the parks in this entirely new shape it is in the process of taking. Say it "lost it's atmosphere/plot" all you want, but when you use it in same sentence as "nostalgia" you're being redundant imo; You're stating a fact you should've come to terms with a long time ago. Yes, this is a theme park. Themes change with the time. Time changes your perception. You are not the same person you were 30 years ago and neither are the parks. Stay in the past or take it on the chin with the rest of us and simply admit that the TARGET audience of Disney is NOT what is was and that THIS generation needs something DIFFERENT. Not bad/wrong/good/evil, but DIFFERENT. DIFFERENT CAN be bad/wrong/good/evil for many, for a whole plethora of reasons, BUT a company like Disney does not have the time to worry about that if they want to continue to be RELEVANT. For better or for worse TIL DEATH DO US PART. Put the flowers on the gravestone. Say your piece. RIP (ride and rock-it -sorrynotsorry that one can burn-) and move along. Nothing lasts forever, not even the best and brightest in the Magic Kingdom.

TL;DR - Toy Story's "Strange Things" intensifies.
 
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TheUniC6

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  • Mar 14, 2025
  • #334
UniversalRBLX said:
This may be true, but I wouldn't take everything in this video factually. They had the Radiator Spring Racers layout in the background when they mentioned what layouts to choose for this new attraction lol


Maelstrom being replaced by Frozen is not the same issue. That was an attraction that displayed the host pavilion's mythology and acted as an advertisement to visit the host nation. It was fitting for the park's original goal to provide multi-cultural experiences in a single visit. Frozen, is just a retelling/re-enactment of a Disney film that has loose connections to the host nation.

Aesthetics are what differentiates Disney from the rest of the pack (including Universal). They spend a lot of time to manicure environments to make guests feel comfortable and 'transported' to a different world (or version of the world). Us humans are attracted by water as it provides a sense of calmness, and in a crowded theme park it makes sense to provide those areas of relief.

Now, I don't disagree with the placement of this project entirely, I just find issue with them completely removing the Frontierland waterfront area. If they can just find a way to "move back" this entire project to where TSL currently starts, I will be fine. I'm not entirely against the removal of TSL or riverboat.

Something like this will be a happy medium. Additional pathways/capacity is a real issue at MK.

View attachment 25400
Disney seems pretty unlikely to expand beyond the railroad unfortunately.
Click to expand...
Josh said both Cars and Villains combined would be the same size as SWGE, 14 acres, meaning Cars will be 4 acres total while Villains would be 10 acres.
 
belloq87

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LPCaptainDeath said:
Stay in the past or take it on the chin with the rest of us and simply admit that the TARGET audience of Disney is NOT what is was and that THIS generation needs something DIFFERENT. Not bad/wrong/good/evil, but DIFFERENT. DIFFERENT CAN be bad/wrong/good/evil for many, for a whole plethora of reasons, BUT a company like Disney does not have the time to worry about that if they want to continue to be RELEVANT. For better or for worse TIL DEATH DO US PART. Put the flowers on the gravestone. Say your piece. RIP (ride and rock-it -sorrynotsorry that one can burn-) and move along. Nothing lasts forever, not even the best and brightest in the Magic Kingdom.
Click to expand...
My counter-argument would simply be that Disney can do both. They have the resources and (in WDW) they certainly have the space to offer new ("relevant") things for new generations and to make sure the things that are already meaningful to older generations (who have to spend the money to bring the new generations) are maintained.

Disneyland -- with its much smaller and much more constrained footprint -- does a much better job of balancing this than WDW does.
 
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UniversalRBLX

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I think Disney can do both at the same time, as bellow87 mentioned.

When they improved the hub a few years back to better accommodate crowds during fireworks, they did it tastefully (though I'm sure a few disagree).

It's certainly a game of balance between aesthetics over adding capacity, but they can do it.
 
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belloq87 said:
My counter-argument would simply be that Disney can do both. They have the resources and (in WDW) they certainly have the space to offer new ("relevant") things for new generations and to make sure the things that are already meaningful to older generations (who have to spend the money to bring the new generations) are maintained.

Disneyland -- with its much smaller and much more constrained footprint -- does a much better job of balancing this than WDW does.
Click to expand...
I hear ya, belloq and RBLX, and i tend to agree with A LOT of what you guys say on here, but -respectfully- what is 'meaningful' to one person is not 'meaningful' to another and they both may not be 'meaningful' in the slightest to Disney. And this is something i think people forget when they hear something is being taken out to pasture. I'm not arguing they don't have the space for it and I'm definitely not arguing that they don't have the means to do so, I'm simply saying they do not WANT to do both and have made LARGE decisions YEAR AFTER YEAR in a DIRECT way to demonstrate the OPPOSITE of what you suggest. I'm not blaming you. You can continue to suggest it. I'm just not going to be surprised when it... doesn't happen. This is the entire infrastructure AND demand of the entertainment industry as a whole, after all.

Anyone can generalize what coulda/shoulda/woulda had value to be something they subjectively consider worth holding onto but it's not going to be worth a modicum of measurement to Disney's objective judgement when they break something down to a figure as simple as maintenance costs against a timeline of rapidly approaching self-imposed deadlines about the public perception that the paint is starting to chip on the things you know and love that's been there for 10+ years. They saw something as black and white as the footprint of Rivers of America and said junk-it; Some would say potential, others will cry bloody murder.

Perhaps my perception is more skewed, as i directly relate to the sales i'm seeing and the statistics do not measure out the way people think, and any AP holders can scoff at me however much they want, but Grandma and Grandpa are NOT the ones taking the kiddos to Disney anymore. My sales are noticeably outweighed by newbies saying "i never got to go as a kid, and now i have a kid, and they like X and X is there." You're NOT hearing Tom Sawyer, Song of the South, Bug's Life or XYZ that YOU care about from 10+ years ago is the point I'm trying to make the most. We can all look back at Maelstrom fondly, I DO! But let's not be surprised it became Frozen. The writing is on the very literal Disney-laden IP wall-paper.
 
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ParksandSights

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LPCaptainDeath said:
I hear ya, belloq and RBLX, and i tend to agree with A LOT of what you guys say on here, but -respectfully- what is 'meaningful' to one person is not 'meaningful' to another and they both may not be 'meaningful' in the slightest to Disney. And this is something i think people forget when they hear something is being taken out to pasture. I'm not arguing they don't have the space for it and I'm definitely not arguing that they don't have the means to do so, I'm simply saying they do not WANT to do both and have made LARGE decisions YEAR AFTER YEAR in a DIRECT way to demonstrate the OPPOSITE of what you suggest. I'm not blaming you. You can continue to suggest it. I'm just not going to be surprised when it... doesn't happen. This is the entire infrastructure AND demand of the entertainment industry as a whole, after all.

Anyone can generalize what coulda/shoulda/woulda had value to be something they subjectively consider worth holding onto but it's not going to be worth a modicum of measurement to Disney's objective judgement when they break something down to a figure as simple as maintenance costs against a timeline of rapidly approaching self-imposed deadlines about the public perception that the paint is starting to chip on the things you know and love that's been there for 10+ years. They saw something as black and white as the footprint of Rivers of America and said junk-it; Some would say potential, others will cry bloody murder.

Perhaps my perception is more skewed, as i directly relate to the sales i'm seeing and the statistics do not measure out the way people think, and any AP holders can scoff at me however much they want, but Grandma and Grandpa are NOT the ones taking the kiddos to Disney anymore. My sales are noticeably outweighed by newbies saying "i never got to go as a kid, and now i have a kid, and they like X and X is there." You're NOT hearing Tom Sawyer, Song of the South, Bug's Life or XYZ that YOU care about from 10+ years ago is the point I'm trying to make the most. We can all look back at Maelstrom fondly, I DO! But let's not be surprised it became Frozen. The writing is on the very literal Disney-laden IP wall-paper.
Click to expand...
I fully agree with this in general, but not in specific. I'm not a travel agent, but even I know that most guests are visiting any theme park simply because there's one thing they're obsessed with. Could be Elsa. Star Wars. The Boy Who Lived. Horror movies. Roller coasters. You name it. And yes, Lightning McQueen could be one of those. So I completely understand why theme parks (not just Disney) spend big on attractions/lands that are based around them, even at the expense of "classic" attractions. And if it bothers anyone, it's the older, enthusiast crowd, which, we have to be honest, is not their main target. Disney has said the quiet part out loud here: Freely using the terms "Yield Management" and "Unfavorable guests".

However, with ROA/TSI at WDW, they're somehow actually removing more and adding less than they did at DLR. Disneyland added the (highly popular) nighttime spectacular Fantasmic, featuring modern Disney IP. The island itself was overhauled with multiple references to a modern Disney film franchise, Pirates of the Caribbean. And they shaved off the back third of river to reroute the train (and add some nice new show scenes to the area, when before it had very little), so they could build a huge expansion land based in the hugely popular Star Wars universe. All the while, there's still a river, with two legacy boat rides and a canoe experience, and an island to explore at your leisure.
At WDW, they're bulldozing everything and replacing it with one ride. It would be like DLR tearing out the river and only building RotR on top of it. It's not theoretical that Disney could have handled this better. They already did in California.
 
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OrlLover

OrlLover

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  • Mar 14, 2025
  • #339
ParksandSights said:
However, with ROA/TSI at WDW, they're somehow actually removing more and adding less than they did at DLR.
Click to expand...
They are actually adding capacity with Villians and Cars so this argument doesn’t work here.

Also can please stop comparing Disneyland and WDW considering they are both very different parks who don’t cater to same set of visitors.

ROA being destroyed is sad in my opinion but unfortunately Disney doesn’t see value in keeping it around. It’s not moving merch or drawing a crowd so it has to go.

I feel like at this point this ROA discussion us starting to drag on for something WDW has in spades like boat rides around a body of water versus Disneyland which only has that one.
 
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LPCaptainDeath

LPCaptainDeath

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  • Mar 14, 2025
  • #340
ParksandSights said:
At WDW, they're bulldozing everything and replacing it with one ride. It would be like DLR tearing out the river and only building RotR on top of it. It's not theoretical that Disney could have handled this better. They already did in California.
Click to expand...
I guess mileage may vary, because i only ever saw a river. I did not ride the boat. I have not gone to Tom Sawyer's Island in 20+ years.

To ME, to get a ride over nothing = something, so to argue "better" or not comes back to my subjective argument of self-interest semantics.
 
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