Halloween Horror Nights 33 (UOR) - Speculation & Rumors

[SixBillium]

But I imagine backstage is tight and they probably don't want people messing with backstage stuff.

I know people who worked at Fear Factor during the AoV era and that was a HUGE issue- granted, AoV weren't Universal TMs- and I would imagine that most of the Bill and Ted crew remained similar year-after-year so it probably wasn't a big problem before.

Bourne is very technical, and also likely not something that would be shut-down for daytime operation for months to implement new show programming- and running Bourne in the AM and HHN-whatever in the PM seems like a war waiting to happen. Both options seem like a loss. Plus, given that the stage is more-or-less a ride system, I can't see anyone from the outside (like AoV or Nightmare Fuel) being allowed to use that stage. Using in-house talent would likely mean they'd need something written in-house, too, which to me sounds like a lot of work with more potential issues than potential solutions.

Unless the right idea is there, or whatever show is designed to be a permanent HHN fixture with minimal changes between years where it can be tweaked/worked on whenever, I think the cons outweigh the pros- even though I think the technology is all there for an awesome Universal Monsters stunt show.

 

[UniversalRBLX]

Bourne uses a TON of physical sets, it wouldn't be what it is without those physical sets.

My point is that you don't need to rely on physical sets to make a great show.

Jabbawockeez at USH didn't have a major physical set outside of a smaller stage they would roll in... and HHN still delivered a solid show.

I know people who worked at Fear Factor during the AoV era and that was a HUGE issue- granted, AoV weren't Universal TMs- and I would imagine that most of the Bill and Ted crew remained similar year-after-year so it probably wasn't a big problem before.

Bourne is very technical, and also likely not something that would be shut-down for daytime operation for months to implement new show programming- and running Bourne in the AM and HHN-whatever in the PM seems like a war waiting to happen. Both options seem like a loss. Plus, given that the stage is more-or-less a ride system, I can't see anyone from the outside (like AoV or Nightmare Fuel) being allowed to use that stage. Using in-house talent would likely mean they'd need something written in-house, too, which to me sounds like a lot of work with more potential issues than potential solutions.

Unless the right idea is there, or whatever show is designed to be a permanent HHN fixture with minimal changes between years where it can be tweaked/worked on whenever, I think the cons outweigh the pros- even though I think the technology is all there for an awesome Universal Monsters stunt show.

Not saying it could only be a stunt show, just about any type of show could fit in Bourne... it's the perfect venue. You can have any sort of set you'd like with the impressive screen background.

 

[Brian G.]

I could be very wrong, and I'll eat my words, but from what I saw back in HHN 31, Ghoulish didn't draw a major crowd. Not saying it didn't pull away a few hundred people, but it definitely didn't attract the same type of crowds HNF did.

Ghoulish only existed for a few weeks, and not during the busier times of October. It's hard to use that as an example. However, I do remember Marathon of Mayhem having quite a bit of a crowd.

Either way - you need to stop comparing it to HNF because no one is arguing it attracts the same type of crowd. You can't argue that Universal needs to do something for capacity and then poopoo any attempt because it's "Not Nightmare Fuel".

Not saying its simple, but I'll say again what I got a lot of heat for... I just haven't seen Universal attempt to improve capacity for the event. Same level of rides (probably less when you consider Simpsons is no longer active), fewer stage shows, and no street/side shows during HHN. They increased to 10 houses years ago, but we've seen tremendous attendance growth thanks to Stranger Things and the event hasn't grown in capacity since then. We lost the lagoon last year, understandably, but we lost that back in February of last year and there was no attempt last year at adding in a 2nd stage show or anything somewhere else to make up for it.

They have - they just aren't in your face about it. They have adjusted parking fees and entry rules, ticket prices, ticket upgrade rules, added a Tribute Store, added a Coconut Club, added the photo ops at the hotels, etc. Last year, to make up for the lagoon - they added the M3GAN show and the Death Eaters, and the Peacock Bar wasn't an attraction - it became a thing to do because of David S Pumpkins. Universal is trying to spread HHN around the whole resort. What you're asking for is similar to just adding a lane to a highway. In theory, it should work - but by the time the new lane opens, you need to add another one.

As I said, it's not as easy as just "add capacity". There are ways to do it, it's just not going to be as easy as "adding an 11th house" or "Add a 2nd stage show".

You wouldn't be able to have any real sets , it is a plain stage outside of the programmable stage pieces that couldn't be used for something else. So a screen and a stage, not a lot you can do with thought outside of presenting a power point. I don't think they worry about people falling thru holes. But I imagine backstage is tight and they probably don't want people messing with backstage stuff.

Exactly. The only thing I can think of that could work is a dance show, but that's a box already checked.

Also - what @SixBillium said.

Not saying it could only be a stunt show, just about any type of show could fit in Bourne... it's the perfect venue. You can have any sort of set you'd like with the impressive screen background.

That would force Bourne to close so whatever is going on can practice - as well as close early during HHN nights.

 

[Legacy]

The only viable show you can put in Bourne for HHN is a “laser” show, as it keeps people from off stage and doesn’t actually require any off time to transition. It’s just changing a video. But then you’re replicating the lagoon show, so it becomes redundant. You also have to worry about show dumps straight into the “prestige” zone.

Universal has actually been incredibly clever in expanding offerings while avoiding hiring problems. Houses and ride operations use the same pool of ride and show TMs, and it already eats into the daytime staff availability. Adding more rides or houses would continue to eat into that pool. Meanwhile, expanding the bars and hotel offerings eats into completely different employee pools.

 

[UniversalRBLX]

Ghoulish only existed for a few weeks, and not during the busier times of October. It's hard to use that as an example. However, I do remember Marathon of Mayhem having quite a bit of a crowd.

Either way - you need to stop comparing it to HNF because no one is arguing it attracts the same type of crowd. You can't argue that Universal needs to do something for capacity and then poopoo any attempt because it's "Not Nightmare Fuel".

The point I'm trying to make is that HHN needs a show just as popular as HNF elsewhere in the park. Lagoon show is a fine addition for HHN... but it's not something they should settle with. The lagoon show needs to complement 2 stage shows, not 1.

They have - they just aren't in your face about it. They have adjusted parking fees and entry rules, ticket prices, ticket upgrade rules, added a Tribute Store, added a Coconut Club, added the photo ops at the hotels, etc. Last year, to make up for the lagoon - they added the M3GAN show and the Death Eaters, and the Peacock Bar wasn't an attraction - it became a thing to do because of David S Pumpkins. Universal is trying to spread HHN around the whole resort. What you're asking for is similar to just adding a lane to a highway. In theory, it should work - but by the time the new lane opens, you need to add another one.

As I said, it's not as easy as just "add capacity". There are ways to do it, it's just not going to be as easy as "adding an 11th house" or "Add a 2nd stage show".

Parking fees, rules, ticket prices, etc. are all additions that negatively impact guests.

Tribute Store is a bonus, but c'mon it's just a store that can barely handle more than ~200 people at a time (and that's a stretch).

M3GAN, in my opinion, was a great addition that unfortunately didn't make a significant impact on the event due to the lack of showtimes/secrecy behind it all.

I can go on about the "adding a lane to a highway" idea and how induced demand is an exaggerated concept that ignores other factors that come into play. Yes, when highways expand they might still see congestion... but there's a good chance the city is experiencing population growth as well. USF as a park is huge, and yet they still "constrict" the event into New York and the FFL/MIB area. As I said, Universal doesn't spread out HHN efficiently but moving people to a stage show over by Hollywood would reduce the congestion in areas that can't be expanded.

That would force Bourne to close so whatever is going on can practice - as well as close early during HHN nights.

C'mon now, Rocky Horror was able to practice offsite and at night and Beetlejuice still ran shows during the day. Also Universal closes their parks early anyway, not like guests will notice a difference anyway.

 

[AlexanderMBush]

Id also just like to say—WaterWorld has absolutely no problem operating the show in daytime and then they transfer it to Purge for Hollywood, last I checked.

 

[Freak]

Id also just like to say—WaterWorld has absolutely no problem operating the show in daytime and then they transfer it to Purge for Hollywood, last I checked.

Don’t forget King Fu Panda to Blumhouse! Surprised how little that interferes with the daytime attraction!

 

[Jake S]

Halloween Horror Nights is exceptionally popular and, at this point, I can't think of any capacity increases that do not come with meaningful tradeoffs. And that's without considering that an increase in theoretical capacity would almost certainly come with an increase in the number of guests Universal is willing to sell.

@Legacy already perfectly stated why adding another house, show or bar is not a simple addition. And this is all happening while many have (reasonably!) fretted about the way Universal will staff an additional theme park. Just to reiterate:

Universal has actually been incredibly clever in expanding offerings while avoiding hiring problems. Houses and ride operations use the same pool of ride and show TMs, and it already eats into the daytime staff availability. Adding more rides or houses would continue to eat into that pool. Meanwhile, expanding the bars and hotel offerings eats into completely different employee pools.

Id also just like to say—WaterWorld has absolutely no problem operating the show in daytime and then they transfer it to Purge for Hollywood, last I checked.

Hollywood and Orlando are vastly different places with vastly different talent pools.

Don’t forget King Fu Panda to Blumhouse! Surprised how little that interferes with the daytime attraction!

This isn't even apples to oranges at this point.

 

[Ahmanet]

Lagoon show when it had Stranger Things was super crowded ... felt like being at a music festival

As someone who just clicks Add HHN Ticket when booking their hotel, this pass stuff is way over my head lol

 

[UniversalRBLX]

The event in the past has always expanded house count to increase capacity as the demand for houses and the event increased.

They’ve been stuck at 10 for a while now as the event will typically have 2 houses throughout the night rarely reaching (actual) waits beyond 45 minutes.

If HNF is filling up each of its 4 nightly shows to capacity, while at the same time Blood Moon/Darkest Deal this past year would rarely exceed the actual 45-min wait mark…

There’s an obvious lack of supply of entertainment… and the solution is not adding more houses.

HHN has increased its draw/target audience just beyond haunted houses, it’s time for the event to offer entertainment.

It’s not an easy task, but neither is building 10 new houses each year.

 

[Brian G.]

The event in the past has always expanded house count to increase capacity as the demand for houses and the event increased.

They’ve been stuck at 10 for a while now as the event will typically have 2 houses throughout the night rarely reaching (actual) waits beyond 45 minutes.

If HNF is filling up each of its 4 nightly shows to capacity, while at the same time Blood Moon/Darkest Deal this past year would rarely exceed the actual 45-min wait mark…

There’s an obvious lack of supply of entertainment… and the solution is not adding more houses.

HHN has increased its draw/target audience just beyond haunted houses, it’s time for the event to offer entertainment.

It’s not an easy task, but neither is building 10 new houses each year.

Then present a solution that it isn’t Roller Coaster Tycooning something together. Lol

You keep saying they need to do this and that but move the goal posts when well-connected and informed people are giving rational reasons as to why it can’t happen or why it doesn’t make sense

 

[Mad Dog]

Just an outsider peeking in.....Tough situation since HHN has become almost too successful. There's not a ton that can be done to increase capacity in a meaningful way. Some capacity tweeks can be made, but they are kind of minor. Of course, for any company, profit needs to be maintained at a similar level, and HHN is probably the single most significant event or seasonal profit generator. Only Universal has the true numbers on 'spending per guest', so we can only guess what the best mix is. But it seems to me, as an HHN outsider, with no vested interest one way or another, that the best possible solution is to change the ticket structure to encourage guest attendance that are the 'largest spenders per guest', at the expense of the guest demographic that doesn't spend much per visit.

 

[UniversalRBLX]

Then present a solution that it isn’t Roller Coaster Tycooning something together. Lol

You keep saying they need to do this and that but move the goal posts when well-connected and informed people are giving rational reasons as to why it can’t happen or why it doesn’t make sense

How am I playing RCT? I don’t think I’ve said anything impossible.

Can’t use Bourne? Fine, use Animal Actors.
Can’t use Animal? Fine, use Horror Makeup.
Can’t use Makeup? Fine, build a smaller pop up stage over by Hollywood.
Don’t wanna do that? Fine, build a theater in an unused soundstage just like they would do Grinchmas prior to leaving BMG deserted.

Stop making excuses for Universal. For years we had pixie dusters at the WDW parks defend every action/cut the company made. Now the parks are having to claw back from those decisions.

I don’t want the same happening to Universal. All I hear are changes being made to ticketing/frequent fear without even remotely attempting to change the way the event actually operates.

 

[Jake S]

I don’t want the same happening to Universal. All I hear are changes being made to ticketing/frequent fear without even remotely attempting to change the way the event actually operates.

That's because, as many posters have made clear over the past couple changes, we don't think the way the event operates is fungible in a way that would meaningfully impact the way guests experience it. On the other hand, changing the ticket structure would, I believe, make a difference in the way crowds are spread.

 

[Brian G.]

How am I playing RCT? I don’t think I’ve said anything impossible.

Can’t use Bourne? Fine, use Animal Actors.
Can’t use Animal? Fine, use Horror Makeup.
Can’t use Makeup? Fine, build a smaller pop up stage over by Hollywood.
Don’t wanna do that? Fine, build a theater in an unused soundstage just like they would do Grinchmas prior to leaving BMG deserted.

Stop making excuses for Universal. For years we had pixie dusters at the WDW parks defend every action/cut the company made. Now the parks are having to claw back from those decisions.

I don’t want the same happening to Universal. All I hear are changes being made to ticketing/frequent fear without even remotely attempting to change the way the event actually operates.

You still didn’t provide a solution… just offered locations with no real rhyme or reason other than it can hold a show - ignoring staffing issues or other logistical ones that other posters have provided.

You have several posters agreeing the lagoon show will help, but for whatever reason insist on something more. I’ve even acknowledged a page ago about HMU being featured could be good.

As far as making excuses… from Oct 2023 in the HHN 32 thread.

I don't think there's any one solution, IMO but several adjustments can be made:

1. There is too much clogging in certain spots as the park isn't properly balanced for the event. They need to find a way to distribute crowds evenly to alleviate the "pressure". Admittedly, KidZone being closed this year exacerbates this issue. Some potential ideas include:

1. Open up the BMG Courtyard to shift over house entrances and maybe a few food spots.
2. Use SS 33 for M&G and food court.
3. Create a small little "hub" backstage in the back where the tents are and have a few house entrances there, some bars, food, and M&Gs too.

2. SF and Central Park are just too high of a congestion spot at this point to have a decent scarezone. Maybe consider just adding ambiance with no actors and consider more roaming hordes in those areas.

3. Reassess how GAC enters queues. This is problematic in high-congestion areas.

4. They do have to offer more things to do with zero to low-wait options. Whether that be a M&G, a behind-the-scenes museum of an upcoming film or the HHN creative process. Venues to use include the Media Center, SS 33, or maybe some of that ol Sting Alley house space they used to use.

5. Yes, a show still helps.

6. Cut ROF. Leave everything else as is. Unfortunately, HHN is at the point where it can't be a daily hang-out spot. If you want to have that luxury, truly make it a luxury and have them pay for the first-level FFP. Cutting Express from the passes just leaves the "locals" hanging out in the streets instead of the houses. The other option would be to fully restructure tickets with a # of Day pass (as other posters have mentioned).

7. This is last because it's a lot tougher with minimal options but... find a way to spookify a ride. The easy answer for now is Rockit. Give the option of limited-time horror soundtracks of houses used during the year. Simpsons would've been great but those darn rights.

An interesting thought may be to keep Islands open, but give it its own free Halloween event/activities. That may decrease the need for people to go to just USF for their Halloween fix.

It has nothing to do with defending Universal.

We’ve gone from 5 houses to 10. 1 show, 4 shows, 2 shows, 1 show, etc… I’ve been going since 2002 and have been a part of forum boards/socials since. We have the data on the events with all sorts of different scenarios, including what happens when 1 show gets yanked mid-event due to a hurricane… The problem is it’s still kicking the can down the road.

The conversation will always circle back to “So what are they going to do about crowds?”. We’re reaching the inevitably of the event just going to start pricing people out. My wallet doesn’t like it, either - but acknowledging that reality doesn’t make anyone a “Universal Defender”.

 

[Casper Gutman]

Here we go again...

You wrote a great list of possible capacity increases which you just reposted above. Those are the sorts of things that would substantially shake up the event and might actually help with capacity. Even if they didn't work, they would at least go some way to justifying a ticket price increase.

I question the efficacy of some of the measures that are listed as recent attempts to spread out the event. I liked the standees in the hotels (and actually tried to visit several) but I am extremely doubtful how much those effected... anything. In general, I fear HHN efforts at the hotels and even at CityWalk (unless they figure out a huge draw) will not serve to dilute the crowds in the park very much. The Megan show was also odd because entertainment would absolutely not tell anyone the performance schedule (even VIP tours), so its impact was fairly minimal.

Universal absolutely has options. The event is tremendously lucrative and Universal has huge amounts of soundstage space, underutilized areas within the parks, and some of the best creative minds in the industry. Its a little unfair to task posters with coming up with a fully viable solution (based on information to which nobody here has access) or withhold criticisms. Its fair for guests spending hundreds, even thousands, of dollars to expect Universal to find a way to creatively increase capacity.

PS: And its not the sole or even primary solution, but there will be an 11th house at some point - you don't refuse to add a lane to an overcrowded highway because someday you might have to add another.

 

[wutisgood]

Adding attractions/shows/houses usually raises the legal capacity limit of a park. They are already raising prices and its still crowded so give people more to do at least and make money on more guests through the gates. As I have said before many times about Disney it saddens me to see the pro corporate narrative that many people parrot that there is nothing the parks can do but raise prices while the parks bring in record revenue and underinvest.

And for anyone saying well budgets are limited for HHN because universal is building a new park, as a guest buying a ticket for HHN I do not care. This is a corporate speak narrative that needs to go away. When a company rakes in record profits from an event each year I expect them to spend accordingly on that event for each year.

Yes HHN is crowded and the park is limited on space, but there is absolutely more they can do. Some people just don't want to hear it for whatever reason.

One of the reasons I liked Knotts Scary Farm more than Universal is that they had not only the same amount of houses which generally were as high quality (although not all new every year some I liked even more), but Knotts tries to have a good amount of entertainment as well as a few ride overlays. I bet if Knotts were dealing with the same limitations as universal we would have a makeup show special edition for Halloween, a Halloween themed magic show in the Bourne theater (look at most guests on Penn and Teller that utilize the video wall only with some props), A large show still on the FFL stage, a soundstage show in the blue man group area with something similar to the anniversary show they had this year or puppet up in the past, and a Halloween Fallon overlay (maybe not with Fallon at all (with performers in the waiting area singing Halloween things or maybe a photo op of some sort).

Now on the point of pricing the goal is to increase profits year to year. Single day tickets and express should be the top spenders. Universal during the day tries to ensure express is a true premium experience at a price where they make money but it doesn't ruin the experience for other guests with regular tickets. Why does that idea go out the window during Halloween? The solution is get rid of all multi night express. Universal doesn't have a season pass for express during the day at any price because they have full control over the volume and dynamic pricing. They should be able control crowds and pricing more specifically and still increase profits while making the regular guest experience better just like during the regular hours. The rich will complain who "saved" on multi night express but will always still pay. Locals buying the multi night passes with express are probably less likely to spend on food and beverage than no locals as well.

I feel like universal has been much more fair than Disney with their non local passholders or ticket buyers but Halloween has been increasingly the opposite.

 

[Legacy]

How am I playing RCT? I don’t think I’ve said anything impossible.

Can’t use Bourne? Fine, use Animal Actors.
Can’t use Animal? Fine, use Horror Makeup.
Can’t use Makeup? Fine, build a smaller pop up stage over by Hollywood.
Don’t wanna do that? Fine, build a theater in an unused soundstage just like they would do Grinchmas prior to leaving BMG deserted.

Stop making excuses for Universal. For years we had pixie dusters at the WDW parks defend every action/cut the company made. Now the parks are having to claw back from those decisions.

I don’t want the same happening to Universal. All I hear are changes being made to ticketing/frequent fear without even remotely attempting to change the way the event actually operates.

Your show location selections kinda prove the impression that you view those locations and options as “interchangeable” and not unique locations with operational challenges.

Bourne has been argued to death. Suffice to say a new show in there is not likely feasible without a lot of effort (and off-site rehearsals for a flat, effectless stage is very different than a stage like Bourne).

Animal Actors - Little to no variation can be made to the venue as it would impact the animal performances, it would share an already crowded green room space with the “sprung city” green room, and you would have to worry about show dumps (it would likely be worse than FFL dumps into the sprungs, since you have two houses and zone right there).

HMU - probably the best option, but the lowest capacity. Also the venue structure severely limits the “spectacle” possibilities of the show. Doesn’t mean it couldn’t be a great show, but does mean it would likely have a niche audience and not actually impact crowds (see the Rocky Horror Conundrum).

Building a stage in Hollywood - compresses an already crowded area, blocks the main entrance to the lagoon show. Also causes significant light/noise bleed into two scarezones. Crowd flow wise, likely only works anymore if CP stops being a zone. This turns that area into an either/or proposition and doesn’t actually add anything.

New Soundstage - the most cost prohibitive option. The parks actually RENT THE SOUNDSTAGES FOR HHN. So, not only would they have to pay to rent the soundstage for three months, they’d have to pay to build a theater annually (to include seating) on top of the standard show production costs. This would also significantly impact crowd flow at the front of the park and cause congestion exactly where it needs to be fixed the most.

Costs, crowd control, backstage politics, the availability and interest of the design team itself… all of those things matter. It’s not as simple as “there’s a theater right there.” Some venues have been off limits to HHN for 30 years… and there are probably reasons for it.

 

[Tbad556]

Your show location selections kinda prove the impression that view those locations and options as “interchangeable” and not unique locations with operational challenges.

Animal Actors - Little to no variation can be made to the venue as it would impact the animal performances, it would share an already crowded green room space with the “sprung city” green room, and you would have to worry about show dumps (it would likely be worse than FFL dumps into the sprungs, since you have two houses and zone right there).

Adding onto the "two houses and a zone". You also have (already busy) food booths in the area and the logistics of the venue being used for Stay & Scream.

No one wants lines/crowds. Everyone would love a solution. It's just not that easy, nor is anyone blindly defending the parks. On the contrary, several insiders are literally giving in-depth explanations why certain things are complex logistical issues.

One of the reasons I liked Knotts Scary Farm more than Universal is that they had not only the same amount of houses which generally were as high quality (although not all new every year some I liked even more), but Knotts tries to have a good amount of entertainment as well as a few ride overlays. I bet if Knotts were dealing with the same limitations as universal we would have a makeup show special edition for Halloween, a Halloween themed magic show in the Bourne theater (look at most guests on Penn and Teller that utilize the video wall only with some props), A large show still on the FFL stage, a soundstage show in the blue man group area with something similar to the anniversary show they had this year or puppet up in the past, and a Halloween Fallon overlay (maybe not with Fallon at all (with performers in the waiting area singing Halloween things or maybe a photo op of some sort).

Bourne has been discussed ad-nauseum. HMU would be great. BMG is occupied for Grinchmas. Fallon is in use for SS23 house queue (and I believe RIP tours may use part of the building as well?).

 

[MikePat]

(and I believe RIP tours may use part of the building as well?).

Yes - really awesome part of the tour just for the views of USF at night.


HMS is usually the check-in spot for RIP Tours too.

One of the reasons I liked Knotts Scary Farm more than Universal is that they had not only the same amount of houses which generally were as high quality (although not all new every year some I liked even more), but Knotts tries to have a good amount of entertainment as well as a few ride overlays. I bet if Knotts were dealing with the same limitations as universal we would have a makeup show special edition for Halloween, a Halloween themed magic show in the Bourne theater (look at most guests on Penn and Teller that utilize the video wall only with some props), A large show still on the FFL stage, a soundstage show in the blue man group area with something similar to the anniversary show they had this year or puppet up in the past, and a Halloween Fallon overlay (maybe not with Fallon at all (with performers in the waiting area singing Halloween things or maybe a photo op of some sort).

I wouldn't compare what Knott's can do to what USF can do. Some venues at Knott's are entirely different from those at USF's; thus, they are a lot easier to create shows and ride overlays than USF.

Additionally, even with Knott’s hosting 10 haunted houses, multiple shows, scare zones, they still face staffing issues.