Spider-Man: No Way Home

[joelbryant11]

New to me doesn't always mean better. We have had two films where the villains were good Tony stark Villains...its Ironic they could not given Ironman solid villains in his films yet Spiderman gets them?

IDK, I kinda think the idea of a young kid having to deal with the mess that his elders created is a really relevant story right now.

You seem upset about the groundwork they've invested into the character instead of looking forward to what they've been setting up. It's like judging the Harry Potter series after the first two movies. The version of Spider-Man that you want to see is coming.

If you want, you can PM me to keep discussing. Otherwise, I think this thread should get back to the specific topic of the third film.

 

[Nick]

New to me doesn't always mean better. We have had two films where the villains were good Tony stark Villains...its Ironic they could not given Ironman solid villains in his films yet Spiderman gets them?

Why does Spider-Man get Vulture and Mysterio? Simple. Sony owns the movie rights to those characters. We're only getting MCU movies with those characters because Disney and Sony are playing nice right now. When Iron Man 1 & 2 were made it was before Disney even bought Marvel, back when Paramount was the distributor of Iron Man films. The rights were all over the place back then, especially with Fox having the X-Men as well.

The Iron Man movies were some of the first in-house films that Marvel Studios ever made. They had to make due with what was available to them at the time when it came to villains.

 

[Jerroddragon]

Why does Spider-Man get Vulture and Mysterio? Simple. Sony owns the movie rights to those characters. We're only getting MCU movies with those characters because Disney and Sony are playing nice right now. When Iron Man 1 & 2 were made it was before Disney even bought Marvel, back when Paramount was the distributor of Iron Man films. The rights were all over the place back then, especially with Fox having the X-Men as well.

The Iron Man movies were some of the first in-house films that Marvel Studios ever made. They had to make due with what was available to them at the time when it came to villains.

No no what I mean is Ironman villains sucked...and its not like the MCU even follows the backstory's for most villains. Most have hints of the comic origins but change the motives but with ironman they just didn't try that hard. Then they get these kinda good idea's but put them in another characters film....instead of Peter and the people around him creating the villains.

It would be sooo lame if Doc Ock in the Spiderman games was like "the Fantastic 4 took everything from me and now the city and spiderman will suffer" like cool you took what makes the Spiderman villains work and threw it out the window because Batman...I mean Ironman is a "more" popular character in the MCU which I want to point out out side of the MCU Spiderman is WAY bigger and somehow Sony and the MCU did make him feel like Robin and so he's not as loved. He feels like a side character and it could be because of Sony but to me that doesn't make it better.

If people here (which I'm assuming most haven't) have seen the Spectacular Spiderman which is a near perfect mix of new and old idea's (it mixes the old comics, the ultimate comics but spins everything in its own way) then watch these films. It's just these films aren't that well done, they are 7/10 fun action films and if you like that fine but I think they could be much more. Also for the person saying these are set up films, thank god we don't have more of those. Winter Solider sets up alot in the MCU but in nooooo way feels like the Spiderman films.

 

[Nick]

No no what I mean is Ironman villains sucked...and its not like the MCU even follows the backstory's for most villains. Most have hints of the comic origins but change the motives but with ironman they just didn't try that hard. Then they get these kinda good idea's but put them in another characters film....instead of Peter and the people around him creating the villains.

It would be sooo lame if Doc Ock in the Spiderman games was like "the Fantastic 4 took everything from me and now the city and spiderman will suffer" like cool you took what makes the Spiderman villains work and threw it out the window because Batman...I mean Ironman is a "more" popular character in the MCU which I want to point out out side of the MCU Spiderman is WAY bigger and somehow Sony and the MCU did make him feel like Robin and so he's not as loved. He feels like a side character and it could be because of Sony but to me that doesn't make it better.

If people here (which I'm assuming most haven't) have seen the Spectacular Spiderman which is a near perfect mix of new and old idea's (it mixes the old comics, the ultimate comics but spins everything in its own way) then watch these films. It's just these films aren't that well done, they are 7/10 fun action films and if you like that fine but I think they could be much more. Also for the person saying these are set up films, thank god we don't have more of those. Winter Solider sets up alot in the MCU but in nooooo way feels like the Spiderman films.

They made him feel like Robin because as you said, Iron Man was the clear alpha of the MCU when Spidey was introduced. We had spent 8 years with RDJ as IM before Spider-Man came in. You don't just get to come in and be at the top just because. In this universe, being "Spider-Man" meant very little to Tony or any of the other Avengers. It meant slightly more than being "Ant-Man".

I'd like to point out though that for the first time, we're seeing a trilogy where Peter stays in high school the whole time. Yeah, Holland's Spidey has seen some stuff, but he's surrounded by much more powerful superheros in the MCU in Captain Marvel, Scarlett Witch, Doctor Strange, etc (not even counting those that have died). Spidey's skill set as a superhero is much closer to Daredevil than some of those who wield such great power around him.

I hate to break it to you, but Spider-Man is probably best served as a side character. We've just never seen him have a mentor too much because most of the time he's fighting local Queens crime (very small scale crap in comparison to what the Avengers are doing) and he's had to learn on the fly in the movies we've seen him in before the Holland version.

 

[TheGentTrent]

Warners Bros/DC must be pretty livid right now. All the hype and buzz they got for the Flash movie is gonna take a hit if this multi-verse film manages to be the first one released. To me, it looks like another Jungle Book situation, where WB announced their film first, only for Disney to fast-track a version of their own and beat them to the punch.

 

[Nick]

Warners Bros/DC must be pretty livid right now. All the hype and buzz they got for the Flash movie is gonna take a hit if this multi-verse film manages to be the first one released. To me, it looks like another Jungle Book situation, where WB announced their film first, only for Disney to fast-track a version of their own and beat them to the punch.

The multi-verse is truly beginning with WandaVision, so it'll be about 3 or 4 chapters into the MCU multiverse by the time DCEU gets there. That's all on WB though. They've been talking about a Flash movie for YEARS.

 

[AlexanderMBush]

The multi-verse is truly beginning with WandaVision, so it'll be about 3 or 4 chapters into the MCU multiverse by the time DCEU gets there. That's all on WB though. They've been talking about a Flash movie for YEARS.

I mean--DC has been getting into Multiverse..only on TV and animated content though.

They haven't scraped it on Live Action for film, and it seems like Disney/Song are seeming try to beat them to the punch two-fold (that's not even counting Spider-Verse and Spidergeddon from 2018).

 

[Scott W.]

All this put me in the mood to rewatch the Raimi trilogy. I finished Spider-Man 2 last night and it's just such a perfect movie. I like Tom Holland but Tobey Maguire killed that role as did Willem Dafoe and Alfred Molina.

I can't put my finger on what it is but watching Spider-Man swinging through New York is such a treat in this trilogy compared to the rest.

 

[Nick]

I mean--DC has been getting into Multiverse..only on TV and animated content though.

They haven't scraped it on Live Action for film, and it seems like Disney may try to beat them to the punch two-fold.

I mean, it really doesn't matter who's first. If both do it and do it well, then both will be successful. Remember, BvS and Civil War were both released within less than 3 months of each other. While both were big box office hits (BvS at $873M and Civil War had $1.153B), BvS was of pretty bad quality in my personal opinion and they tried to jump start to DCEU way too quickly without building up characters first. Civil War was pretty much Avengers 2.5 and was an extremely high caliber movie that had a lot of hype around it simply for the fact that Spider-Man and Black Panther would be debuting in the movie.

Civil War was the kickoff to Phase 3 and really pushed the story that we were following forward and dealt with some much needed internal conflict. After one movie (Man of Steel) for them to already be fighting each other in the DCEU was an odd choice and it really didn't seem to work out too well. However, if both The Flash and Spidey 3/Strange 2 are all good films that move their Universes forward or expand them, then there's likely room for two winners here.

 

[RevFreako]

They made him feel like Robin because as you said, Iron Man was the clear alpha of the MCU when Spidey was introduced. We had spent 8 years with RDJ as IM before Spider-Man came in. You don't just get to come in and be at the top just because. In this universe, being "Spider-Man" meant very little to Tony or any of the other Avengers. It meant slightly more than being "Ant-Man".

I'd like to point out though that for the first time, we're seeing a trilogy where Peter stays in high school the whole time. Yeah, Holland's Spidey has seen some stuff, but he's surrounded by much more powerful superheros in the MCU in Captain Marvel, Scarlett Witch, Doctor Strange, etc (not even counting those that have died). Spidey's skill set as a superhero is much closer to Daredevil than some of those who wield such great power around him.

I hate to break it to you, but Spider-Man is probably best served as a side character. We've just never seen him have a mentor too much because most of the time he's fighting local Queens crime (very small scale crap in comparison to what the Avengers are doing) and he's had to learn on the fly in the movies we've seen him in before the Holland version.

Part of the point of Spider-Man in the first place, is that he's a high school kid, fighting enemies that at the end of the day are pretty pathetic and laughable. He shouldn't be a world beater.

 

[SeventyOne]

No no what I mean is Ironman villains sucked...and its not like the MCU even follows the backstory's for most villains.

Agree that Spidey has the best Marvel villains, but to MCU's defense, Iron Man has the hugely problematic Mandarin, his also problematic pet dragon (who's actually an alien)*, and a couple dozen guys in knock-off Iron Man suits. Putting aside the first two, they did Iron Monger in the first movie, "different guy in a smaller armor suit" is going to feel like a let-down after that. And while they may not be comics-accurate or showy, Justin Hammer and Guy Pierce's Mandarin were perfect foils to Tony Stark from a character perspective.

That said, I agree with your other points about taking independent loner Peter Parker and turning him into Iron Man's sidekick. Felt like they jobbed him to make Stark look even better.


*-My knowledge of comics stops somewhere in the early 90s. For all I know this has been ret-conned 10x since. But the initial versions of the characters would be a minefield in the 2010s.

 

[joelbryant11]

I would argue that the MCU has been laying the groundwork for multiverse stories for awhile. In 2013’s Thor: The Dark World, the concept of different realities/worlds interacting with each other was introduced to general audiences through The Convergence. Even though the 9 realms we saw were all from the same timeline, it still felt like multiverse. Dr. Selvig has a whole chalkboard full of multiverse theories in the movie.

Doctor Strange (filmed in 2015) was about other dimensions posing threats to our reality. The Ancient One is shown to have a vast understanding of multiple realities/timelines.

Avengers: Endgame (filmed in 2017) was all about the concept of how parallel timelines/universes can exist. Even though these were “branch” timelines that were created by the Avengers, it has a lot of multiverse properties.

With Spider-Man: Far From Home (filmed in 2018) they pretty much not-so-subtly pointed to multiverse becoming a big factor. While Mysterio was lying (?) about coming from another timeline, whatever is left of SHIELD besides Talos and Soren clearly knew enough about the multiverse to buy it. Also, the J.K. Simmons inclusion as a different version of JJJ was essentially an announcement that the multiverse is officially a part of the MCU going forward.

They announced Doctor Strange In The Multiverse of Madness a year before any of this information about The Flash came out. Also, WandaVision is going to go full multiverse this December.

I don’t buy this notion that they are “copying” DC. In fact, it’s always been clear which of them has been playing catch-up.

 

[OhHaiInternet95]

I may be the only one saying this, but I think the MCU is taking a chance going with a Multiverse storyline. I honestly don't think the moviegoing public is smart enough to get it.

I would agree...but didn't Spiderverse do well at the box office?

I'm so conflicted about the Mandarin twist in IM3. I love playing with expectations, but did it really have to be with such a great villain? Ben was so scary in those videos.

 

[joelbryant11]

The multi-verse is truly beginning with WandaVision, so it'll be about 3 or 4 chapters into the MCU multiverse by the time DCEU gets there. That's all on WB though. They've been talking about a Flash movie for YEARS.

WB with their DCEU announcements is equivalent to Disney’s theme park announcements They say it and you won’t see it for 6 years

 

[Nick]

WB with their DCEU announcements is equivalent to Disney’s theme park announcements They say it and you won’t see it for 6 years

Dwayne Johnson sure as hell knows that with how things have gone with his Black Adam movie. He's been attached to the film and a part of it's development since 2008.

 

[RevFreako]

I would agree...but didn't Spiderverse do well at the box office?

I'm so conflicted about the Mandarin twist in IM3. I love playing with expectations, but did it really have to be with such a great villain? Ben was so scary in those videos.

They got away with it with one character, in an animated movie. I'm not saying it won't work, I'm saying they're taking a hance, and possibly overestimating the public's capacity.

 

[Jerroddragon]

They made him feel like Robin because as you said, Iron Man was the clear alpha of the MCU when Spidey was introduced. We had spent 8 years with RDJ as IM before Spider-Man came in. You don't just get to come in and be at the top just because. In this universe, being "Spider-Man" meant very little to Tony or any of the other Avengers. It meant slightly more than being "Ant-Man".

I'd like to point out though that for the first time, we're seeing a trilogy where Peter stays in high school the whole time. Yeah, Holland's Spidey has seen some stuff, but he's surrounded by much more powerful superheros in the MCU in Captain Marvel, Scarlett Witch, Doctor Strange, etc (not even counting those that have died). Spidey's skill set as a superhero is much closer to Daredevil than some of those who wield such great power around him.

I hate to break it to you, but Spider-Man is probably best served as a side character. We've just never seen him have a mentor too much because most of the time he's fighting local Queens crime (very small scale crap in comparison to what the Avengers are doing) and he's had to learn on the fly in the movies we've seen him in before the Holland version.

No Way on Spiderman being a side character

The video game (which sold and scored very well) shows Spiderman at pretty much his best.

Also kinda Spoilers for people who haven't played a 2 year old game but the ending fight where Peter telling the villain how much he cared about him and the villain gave it all up for some power made me cry. Its raw real emotion, its the Character who has a good mentor that both the world and his tach made him go mad.

Spiderman works best when him and his characters are around him....another reason Venom which did well enough (but it went to China and you don't need a good film to do well if your movie gets to be shown in Chinese Theaters...cough cough Transformers) but Venom filmed suffers alot from not being apart of Spiderman and his characters. Besides the Xmen, no other Marvel title has a big enough Universe to be interesting on its own but Spiderman does because Peter is normally righting villains that he kinda created or had a hand in and also these villains match Spiderman in powers and aren't gods.

It's why to Me Superman and Captain Marvel can be boring they are sooo powerful that nothig can really beat them and then if you mix in Batman how do you have a group of villains that could lose to a normal man but Superman didn't take them down in ten seconds.
I know some people love EVERYTHING MCU and think for the most part they have done well but to me Spiderman is the biggest mistake and to me doesn't really work that well, and I'm sure most of it is from Sony.
Sony sucks with these characters and Spider Verse was a lucky mistake and its because the studio had no hand in it that it got Spiderman so well.

 

[Tristan]

No Way on Spiderman being a side character

The video game (which sold and scored very well) shows Spiderman at pretty much his best.

Also kinda Spoilers for people who haven't played a 2 year old game but the ending fight where Peter telling the villain how much he cared about him and the villain gave it all up for some power made me cry. Its raw real emotion, its the Character who has a good mentor that both the world and his tach made him go mad.

Spiderman works best when him and his characters are around him....another reason Venom which did well enough (but it went to China and you don't need a good film to do well if your movie gets to be shown in Chinese Theaters...cough cough Transformers) but Venom filmed suffers alot from not being apart of Spiderman and his characters. Besides the Xmen, no other Marvel title has a big enough Universe to be interesting on its own but Spiderman does because Peter is normally righting villains that he kinda created or had a hand in and also these villains match Spiderman in powers and aren't gods.

It's why to Me Superman and Captain Marvel can be boring they are sooo powerful that nothig can really beat them and then if you mix in Batman how do you have a group of villains that could lose to a normal man but Superman didn't take them down in ten seconds.
I know some people love EVERYTHING MCU and think for the most part they have done well but to me Spiderman is the biggest mistake and to me doesn't really work that well, and I'm sure most of it is from Sony.
Sony sucks with these characters and Spider Verse was a lucky mistake and its because the studio had no hand in it that it got Spiderman so well.

I'm sorry but what's the main idea here? Spidey not being a side character? The PS4 game and its final boss, Sony and Venom not doing well with the license, Bat...Batman? or Spiderverse? I don't mean to be mean, but this very poorly worded.

 

[Legacy]

Agree that Spidey has the best Marvel villains, but to MCU's defense, Iron Man has the hugely problematic Mandarin, his also problematic pet dragon (who's actually an alien)*, and a couple dozen guys in knock-off Iron Man suits. Putting aside the first two, they did Iron Monger in the first movie, "different guy in a smaller armor suit" is going to feel like a let-down after that. And while they may not be comics-accurate or showy, Justin Hammer and Guy Pierce's Mandarin were perfect foils to Tony Stark from a character perspective.

Killian wasn’t “THE” Mandarin. He’s a standalone character in the Iron Man gallery. They just expanded his connection to Extremis to serve as a full villain instead of just a bit scientist.

THE Mandarin is rumored to appear in Shang Chi, which works since he actually breaks Trevor out of prison after Iron Man 3.

I would agree...but didn't Spiderverse do well at the box office?

I'm so conflicted about the Mandarin twist in IM3. I love playing with expectations, but did it really have to be with such a great villain? Ben was so scary in those videos.

Honestly, with the real Mandarin and the Ten Rings likely appearing in Shang Chi, the swerve actually makes the real Mandarin a far more mysterious and threatening villain. It’s one of the only remaining threads that’s actually crossing into the new phase. The Ten Rings actually kidnap Tony in the first movie!

It’s going to make Shang Chi an instantly important film to the overall MCU.

 

[Jerroddragon]

I'm sorry but what's the main idea here? Spidey not being a side character? The PS4 game and its final boss, Sony and Venom not doing well with the license, Bat...Batman? or Spiderverse? I don't mean to be mean, but this very poorly worded.

Short Version the best Spiderman Stories are when the character is one his own.

I would love someone to name a comic Spiderman is famous for outside his own books. Most people like the Venom, Kraven and Sinister Six stuff I don't know anyone who is like my favorite Story is when Spiderman helped the Avengers.
Miss Marvel, to me is also stronger on her own. When she has villains that fit her life and make sense not some super alien she has no connection to.