Star Wars: The Last Jedi

[k_peek_2000]

Tonally though, this was by far the most Star Warsy movie we've had since Return. I think Rian's shortcomings came with him having to inherent another person's story. I hope this doesn't discourage Disney from letting Rian continue on his trilogy. That could still be an amazing thing.

 

[Ashhanbre]

Just got back from seeing it. First of all, I was a huge fan of The Force Awakens. Absolutely loved that movie. As for The Last Jedi.....still liked it but not as good. For one, I felt it was about 30 minutes too long and definitely had some side stories that should have been cut. That being said, there were 2 outstanding moments when the audience clapped and I got goosebumps. More thoughts in the spoiler section below.

Spoiler

One of my favorite things about Force Awakens is the chemistry/budding story between Finn and Rey. And that was just absolutely thrown in the garbage can here. Not even 2 minutes of screen time together. Big let down. I also was expecting some huge reveal about Snoke (hoping he was somehow Vader or Darth Sideous who had somehow found the way to immortality). Big letdown there, as we find out he's just some random Sith with no backstory and no importance (like Darth Maul). I absolutely hated the Laura Dern character. Would have been better if Leia was the one piloting that ship in the end. One of the things I loved of course was the connection between Rey and Kylo Ren. I keep waiting for them to be brother and sister or something. But then they say her parents were basically non-important characters, after building that up for 2 movies. Hopefully that's just a smoke screen. Loved the part when Rey and Kylo joined forces. That was one of the goosebump moments for me. But then seconds later, he's bad again. I was like...c'mon man. Loved the throwback of R2 replaying the "Help me Obi Wan Kenobi" message. Was frustrated that Luke was so hard to convince to stop pouting. But when they used Yoda, I was thankful they used the laughing puppet version of Empire Strikes Back instead of the wise CGI version from the prequels. And of course the best part of the movie was Luke's Jedi Mind Trick on Kylo. That was the second goosebump moment. But then we are left wondering.....did Luke die? Sure seems like he did. But its weird that he dies because he used up all his energy projecting himself into another area. I don't know, but it seems like that is something too weak to kill someone so powerful. But now with Snoke gone, the only thing left is Kylo vs. Rey, and Kylo is already such a weak/conflicted bad guy. He's not "scary" anymore, like Darth Vader always was. But thankfully JJ Abrams is doing the next one...so I trust him.

 

[zg44]

Tonally though, this was by far the most Star Warsy movie we've had since Return. I think Rian's shortcomings came with him having to inherent another person's story. I hope this doesn't discourage Disney from letting Rian continue on his trilogy. That could still be an amazing thing.

I think Disney dodged a bullet with Rian basically getting promoted from 9 to his own trilogy when they offered him 9. I think TLJ shows that Rian can make a convincing Star Wars movie, but the limitations of working with an already established story are what causes problems between what people expected out of TLJ and what Rian showed.

That's why I think it's far better for all with JJ handling it given that he directed TFA and set up this trilogy, so he should be able to narratively weave the results of TLJ into a conclusion that leaves us feeling as we did at the end of RotJ, which I think is important for 9.

For Rian, I think TLJ showed that if he sets up his own story, he could create a meaningful and high quality trilogy for Star Wars, it's just that having him essentially decide the Skywalkers fate was a bit more problematic.

 

[Nick]

I think Disney dodged a bullet with Rian basically getting promoted from 9 to his own trilogy when they offered him 9. I think TLJ shows that Rian can make a convincing Star Wars movie, but the limitations of working with an already established story are what causes problems between what people expected out of TLJ and what Rian showed.

That's why I think it's far better for all with JJ handling it given that he directed TFA and set up this trilogy, so he should be able to narratively weave the results of TLJ into a conclusion that leaves us feeling as we did at the end of RotJ, which I think is important for 9.

For Rian, I think TLJ showed that if he sets up his own story, he could create a meaningful and high quality trilogy for Star Wars, it's just that having him essentially decide the Skywalkers fate was a bit more problematic.

I agree that him having to work off of JJs story limited him. I guess that's why I also think it's a good thing that JJ is coming back for 9 as he will be able to finish what he started (although he will too be working off of another directors' work).

 

[sjago13]

So a question for those old enough to have seen the original trilogy back then.

Spoiler

Were people pissed off the emperor who just shows up as a hologram in 5 and as some dude that sits in a chair and gets killed by his apprentice in 6? Without the prequels there is not much context to him so I don't get why people are up in arms over not knowing who snoake is and "how easily" he died.

 

[Brian G.]

So a question for those old enough to have seen the original trilogy back then.

Spoiler

Were people pissed off the emperor who just shows up as a hologram in 5 and as some dude that sits in a chair and gets killed by his apprentice in 6? Without the prequels there is not much context to him so I don't get why people are up in arms over not knowing who snoake is and "how easily" he died.

Spoiler

So when the trilogy came out, there was no background other than what Ep 4 and 5 gave us. We understood Vader was the bad guy, and that he answered to a bigger bad guy who ran the Empire. We went through a trilogy with Luke overcoming the Empire; specifically his inner conflict with learning the force at an older age, his temptation with the dark side, Vader being his daddy, and the Emperor thinking he can turn him. Then we get prequels explaining how the Empire came to rise to add more context. The villains were properly fleshed out. Now after 6 movies, we get another Empire-type group with a leader who is strong in the force. According to Ep 6, the impression was the dark side's reign/height of power was no more.... so a bit of context would be nice. It doesn't have to be a movie dedicated to it ... but ya know.... 10 min could've helped.

 

[Nick]

Spoiler

So when the trilogy came out, there was no background other than what Ep 4 and 5 gave us. We understood Vader was the bad guy, and that he answered to a bigger bad guy who ran the Empire. We went through a trilogy with Luke overcoming the Empire; specifically his inner conflict with learning the force at an older age, his temptation with the dark side, Vader being his daddy, and the Emperor thinking he can turn him. Then we get prequels explaining how the Empire came to rise to add more context. The villains were properly fleshed out. Now after 6 movies, we get another Empire-type group with a leader who is strong in the force. According to Ep 6, the impression was the dark side's reign/height of power was no more.... so a bit of context would be nice. It doesn't have to be a movie dedicated to it ... but ya know.... 10 min could've helped.

Spoiler

and if they could've swapped out 10 minutes of Finn's storyline for 10 minutes of that, I think it would've made for a better all-around movie.

 

[jtsalien]

There are undoubtedly flaws in this film. I sincerely hope that doesn't stop people from enjoying the movie. Because there's a lot of great moments in it. If you haven't seen it, read as little as possible and go in without crazy hyped up expectations and I think you'll have a good time.

Spoiler

Yes. I hated THAT scene with Leia. Yes, it was a bit long. I actually enjoyed the Finn stuff, but it was just unnecessary. Get back to Rey and Luke please.

It's funny. I just happened to finish HP Book 5 the other day (yeah yeah, I know I'm behind. But I'm getting there)... And I'm honestly pretty shocked nobody I've seen has mentioned that connection. It felt like Rey and the Order of the Phoenix there a bit for me. I kinda hated the mind connection thing they did. I get manipulating the force to transmit thoughts or emotions with people you share a deep connection with, but full on visualizing them and having a conversation? Meh. It's better than prequel logic, but just feels awkwrd
to me.

That being said, Mark Hamill crushes. I'm sure once this goes on home video, someone can just make a Luke supercut, and those that hate the film can just watch that.

I enjoyed the places that Rian tried to go and I'm intrigued by what he'll do with some more free reign. But I agree with what's already been said. They can't win. TFA was unadulterated fan service and got skewered for it, and they try and go their own way now and I see some reviews claiming it tarnished SW and spit on the brand and blah blah blah. I think in general the SW brand has warped some people's view points on the franchise. In all these films... we've had one unequivocally great film, one really one, and then a whole bunch that range from good to Meh to garbage.

In conclusion, I feel right now that the film is beautiful, fun, and mythological sound.... But flawed. And that's okay with me. Because I had a great time at the movies.

 

[Nick]

Will be interesting where the RT audience score sits after this weekend. As of right now, it only keeps going down. It was at an already bad 59% at the start of the day, now down to 56%, with 72,000+ audience reviews in. If it stays as low as it currently is, it will be the lowest ever rated Star Wars movie by audiences.

To give context, this is what the rest of the Skywalker Saga (+Rogue One) has for Audience Scores:
A New Hope - 96% audience score with 856,000+ reviews
Empire Strikes Back - 97% w/ 1M+ reviews
Return of the Jedi - 94% w/1M+ reviews
The Phantom Menace - 59% w/1.2M+ reviews
Attack of the Clones - 57% w/ 848,000+ reviews
Revenge of the Sith - 65% w/ 33.6M+ reviews
The Force Awakens - 88% w/ 223,000+ reviews
Rogue One - 87% w/ 96,000+ reviews

It received an "A" CinemaScore though so audiences didn't come out of the theater immediately unhappy. Also for context, audiences enjoyed Justice League far more so far with it sitting at an 80% audience score with 115,000+ reviews.

 

[jtsalien]

Will be interesting where the RT audience score sits after this weekend. As of right now, it only keeps going down. It was at an already bad 59% at the start of the day, now down to 56%, with 72,000+ audience reviews in. If it stays as low as it currently is, it will be the lowest ever rated Star Wars movie by audiences.

To give context, this is what the rest of the Skywalker Saga (+Rogue One) has for Audience Scores:
A New Hope - 96% audience score with 856,000+ reviews
Empire Strikes Back - 97% w/ 1M+ reviews
Return of the Jedi - 94% w/1M+ reviews
The Phantom Menace - 59% w/1.2M+ reviews
Attack of the Clones - 57% w/ 848,000+ reviews
Revenge of the Sith - 65% w/ 33.6M+ reviews
The Force Awakens - 88% w/ 223,000+ reviews
Rogue One - 87% w/ 96,000+ reviews

It received an "A" CinemaScore though so audiences didn't come out of the theater immediately unhappy. Also for context, audiences enjoyed Justice League far more so far with it sitting at an 80% audience score with 115,000+ reviews.

It is pretty jarring to see a critic score (93% rn) be so much higher in what is supposed to be a blockbuster. There is no reality in which any prequel film has better action, character development, acting, and can go on and on about the levels at which this is a better film.

The cynic in me wants to say that people not liking this movie proves its good, because current movie tastes have resulted in the current poor state of a lot of big budget films

 

[Ryan]

There are undoubtedly flaws in this film. I sincerely hope that doesn't stop people from enjoying the movie. Because there's a lot of great moments in it. If you haven't seen it, read as little as possible and go in without crazy hyped up expectations and I think you'll have a good time.

See, this is the kind of thing that is driving me absolutely bonkers at the moment. People are obsessed and furious over specific details yet just can't overlook that to see the greatness beyond. Some are just so attached to the need for explainations but that's not all films should be imo. Character over backstory in my books IMO.

I loved it.

Will be interesting where the RT audience score sits after this weekend. As of right now, it only keeps going down. It was at an already bad 59% at the start of the day, now down to 56%, with 72,000+ audience reviews in. If it stays as low as it currently is, it will be the lowest ever rated Star Wars movie by audiences.

It's mostly trolls at the moment, to be fair.

 

[quinnmac000]

See, this is the kind of thing that is driving me absolutely bonkers at the moment. People are obsessed and furious over specific details yet just can't overlook that to see the greatness beyond. Some are just so attached to the need for explainations but that's not all films should be imo. Character over backstory in my books IMO.

I loved it.

Star Wars is built on nostalgia. Specific details are what people have lived by for the last 40 years. People take these films seriously so while some are saying oh its just people are upset because their theories or their detail oriented minds because too picky, you are somewhat insulting their love for Star Wars.

 

[Nick]

It's mostly trolls at the moment, to be fair.

On IMDB it's at an 8.1/10 for user scores (with 62,000+ reviews) and IMDB is less frequented as a place to check out movie reviews, so I agree in part. It is a very divisive movie though, although mostly in part because it's different. SW fans aren't used to a SW film being done in this manner. It's the exact opposite of TFA.

 

[Brian G.]

See, this is the kind of thing that is driving me absolutely bonkers at the moment. People are obsessed and furious over specific details yet just can't overlook that to see the greatness beyond. Some are just so attached to the need for explainations but that's not all films should be imo. Character over backstory in my books IMO.

I loved it.



It's mostly trolls at the moment, to be fair.

It’s fair to be expecting forward story progression from what TFA gave us. Some of the characters are obviously not given the same treatment by RJ - whether it be due to his lack of enthusiasm of the character themself or lost in the fold.

 

[Ryan]

It’s fair to be expecting forward story progression from what TFA gave us. Some of the characters are obviously not given the same treatment by RJ - whether it be due to his lack of enthusiasm of the character themself or lost in the fold.

Spoiler

I guess this goes forward to talk about the now infamous Snoke death scene... and I think as a subversion of where the story will go, it's a barnburner and an absolute fervent joy for anyone who was a bit ambivalent to the idea of a new Palpatine. This entire film seems to be about disappointment and not being afraid to let go and start fresh, and that's what TLJ seems to be doing. It's an antithesis of TFA, and I think that fact is not sitting well with some people understandably.

However, I applaud the decision to just steer the ship in another direction. It doesn't bother me that Snoke doesn't get an explanation (and trust me, Disney will ensure that in one way or another, it'll happen with their bajillion Star Wars projects), mostly because it keeps to the characters I care about and keeps things invigorating and fresh.

 

[Nick]

Just got back from seeing it. First of all, I was a huge fan of The Force Awakens. Absolutely loved that movie. As for The Last Jedi.....still liked it but not as good. For one, I felt it was about 30 minutes too long and definitely had some side stories that should have been cut. That being said, there were 2 outstanding moments when the audience clapped and I got goosebumps. More thoughts in the spoiler section below.

Spoiler

One of my favorite things about Force Awakens is the chemistry/budding story between Finn and Rey. And that was just absolutely thrown in the garbage can here. Not even 2 minutes of screen time together. Big let down. I also was expecting some huge reveal about Snoke (hoping he was somehow Vader or Darth Sideous who had somehow found the way to immortality). Big letdown there, as we find out he's just some random Sith with no backstory and no importance (like Darth Maul). I absolutely hated the Laura Dern character. Would have been better if Leia was the one piloting that ship in the end. One of the things I loved of course was the connection between Rey and Kylo Ren. I keep waiting for them to be brother and sister or something. But then they say her parents were basically non-important characters, after building that up for 2 movies. Hopefully that's just a smoke screen. Loved the part when Rey and Kylo joined forces. That was one of the goosebump moments for me. But then seconds later, he's bad again. I was like...c'mon man. Loved the throwback of R2 replaying the "Help me Obi Wan Kenobi" message. Was frustrated that Luke was so hard to convince to stop pouting. But when they used Yoda, I was thankful they used the laughing puppet version of Empire Strikes Back instead of the wise CGI version from the prequels. And of course the best part of the movie was Luke's Jedi Mind Trick on Kylo. That was the second goosebump moment. But then we are left wondering.....did Luke die? Sure seems like he did. But its weird that he dies because he used up all his energy projecting himself into another area. I don't know, but it seems like that is something too weak to kill someone so powerful. But now with Snoke gone, the only thing left is Kylo vs. Rey, and Kylo is already such a weak/conflicted bad guy. He's not "scary" anymore, like Darth Vader always was. But thankfully JJ Abrams is doing the next one...so I trust him.

Spoiler

Remember, it was Kylo who said that Rey's parents were pretty much nobody's. I'm not saying it isn't true, but are we to just take Kylo Ren at his word? I have a feeling Rey's parentage will come up again in Episode 9.

 

[Brian G.]

Spoiler

I guess this goes forward to talk about the now infamous Snoke death scene... and I think as a subversion of where the story will go, it's a barnburner and an absolute fervent joy for anyone who was a bit ambivalent to the idea of a new Palpatine. This entire film seems to be about disappointment and not being afraid to let go and start fresh, and that's what TLJ seems to be doing. It's an antithesis of TFA, and I think that fact is not sitting well with some people understandably.

However, I applaud the decision to just steer the ship in another direction. It doesn't bother me that Snoke doesn't get an explanation (and trust me, Disney will ensure that in one way or another, it'll happen with their bajillion Star Wars projects), mostly because it keeps to the characters I care about and keeps things invigorating and fresh.

I can't agree with that at all.

Spoiler

I don't mind the death - just how it was handled. Snoke matters because we spent 6 movies with the Empire, from seeing how conniving Palpatine was to overthrow a mighty Republic and hundreds of Jedi, to dominating the galaxy up until Ep 6 when Skywalker and the Rebels overthrew him. Like I said earlier, shed some light on how this guy came out of nowhere to get the First Order to follow him... to outwit Luke when it came to Ben's turn...

This guy was powerful enough to link the minds of Kylo and Rey - a person who he never met on an island that Luke made sure to hide from Jedi eyes yet he can't suspect some trouble with Kylo and some force movement next to him? It was a cool moment to see them link up and do battle, but it felt like a cheat to people that were interested in Snoke. It doesn't need to be a twist, or a big reveal. Just a little something to make sure we can invest in a pretty significant baddie and root for him to lose other than "because the script told us so".

 

[Nick]

I can't agree with that at all.

Spoiler

I don't mind the death - just how it was handled. Snoke matters because we spent 6 movies with the Empire, from seeing how conniving Palpatine was to overthrow a mighty Republic and hundreds of Jedi, to dominating the galaxy up until Ep 6 when Skywalker and the Rebels overthrew him. Like I said earlier, shed some light on how this guy came out of nowhere to get the First Order to follow him... to outwit Luke when it came to Ben's turn...

This guy was powerful enough to link the minds of Kylo and Rey - a person who he never met on an island that Luke made sure to hide from Jedi eyes yet he can't suspect some trouble with Kylo and some force movement next to him? It was a cool moment to see them link up and do battle, but it felt like a cheat to people that were interested in Snoke. It doesn't need to be a twist, or a big reveal. Just a little something to make sure we can invest in a pretty significant baddie and root for him to lose other than "because the script told us so".

100% agreed.

Spoiler

Was Snoke my favorite character? Hell no. But by about 45 mins into TLJ, he was sure proving himself to be a really powerful figure in the Star Wars universe and the fact that he couldn't detect the saber moving right next to him is ludicrous. Was it a memorable death? Hell yeah. But it was handled incredibly poorly, imo.

 

[Brian G.]

100% agreed.

Spoiler

Was Snoke my favorite character? Hell no. But by about 45 mins into TLJ, he was sure proving himself to be a really powerful figure in the Star Wars universe and the fact that he couldn't detect the saber moving right next to him is ludicrous. Was it a memorable death? Hell yeah. But it was handled incredibly poorly, imo.

I just read some backstory on it.

Spoiler

So Snoke apparently has some Osteoporosis-type situation according to Andy Serkis, and his deformities drive his intense hatred.

They easily could have played off that he was never appreciated by Jedi, or maybe even the Sith, and wanted to show that he had just as much as power to rule - and when the Empire fell... he found his entrance. He realized he needed an apprentice and started hearing about the grandson of the great Vader and started to lure Ben over. Easy connection to give to at least care a bit.

Furthermore, this guy didn't just lure Kylo with him - but the Knights of Ren are all Luke's former students so..... he's got some swag...

ALSO WTF - waste of KoR too.

 

[Ryan]

I can't agree with that at all.

Spoiler

I don't mind the death - just how it was handled. Snoke matters because we spent 6 movies with the Empire, from seeing how conniving Palpatine was to overthrow a mighty Republic and hundreds of Jedi, to dominating the galaxy up until Ep 6 when Skywalker and the Rebels overthrew him. Like I said earlier, shed some light on how this guy came out of nowhere to get the First Order to follow him... to outwit Luke when it came to Ben's turn...

This guy was powerful enough to link the minds of Kylo and Rey - a person who he never met on an island that Luke made sure to hide from Jedi eyes yet he can't suspect some trouble with Kylo and some force movement next to him? It was a cool moment to see them link up and do battle, but it felt like a cheat to people that were interested in Snoke. It doesn't need to be a twist, or a big reveal. Just a little something to make sure we can invest in a pretty significant baddie and root for him to lose other than "because the script told us so".

Spoiler

I think it's because in the realm of the saga itself, Snoke doesn't matter.

Of course, he matters to some people because some can't let go of the fact that this should matter in some way because that's how former Star Wars movies have taught us. But this is a different beast, one that's laser-focused on the major characters of the saga.

It's a challenging, potentially frustrating concept to not gain the backstory or even feel merit but his point was to make Kylo turn the way that he did and advance his arc.

(edit: also in response to Nick, Snoke was done in by his own hubris. He could not see the forrest for the trees because he was so self-assured)

Needless to say, Rian Johnson does not like to play things safe or by the rules and boy is he dividing people on this film. Like, no offense Brian at all especially since I was the one to initially respond but I rolled my eyes when I saw a response had been made, because I'm just exhausted talking and arguing about this film. Normally I can toss backlash sentiment to a critically-adored blockbuster off to trolls or pot-stirring contrarians (RT audience scores notwithstanding), but here it's people who's opinion I really do respect and cherish just coming off this film with a complete opposite opinions than I do.

It's almost kind of fascinating about what this says about the very stasis of Star Wars and how the fact of its own reverence can also be its downfall. We've had that proven with the prequels, but this time it's downright maddening about the seemingly polarizing perspectives on this film.

I'm not sure the internet can survive this one, net neutrality be damned haha