Universal Orlando Resort Expansion (Part 1)

[Scott W.]

Ok, I get the whole.. "oo.. third park.." thing, but...

What do we really expect Universal to build to justify so much land? And how does it work with the other existing complex?

Shuttle buses? Some sort of monorail or gondola?

The logistics of it all just seem wacky to me.

I don't think they'll realistically use it all but I can see their thinking. They finally build themselves up to a position of being hugely successful and having the finances in place to expand to only be severely land locked. They never want to be in that position again.

 

[zg44]

Yeah, Uni already owns some of the land on Uni Blvd. If you couldn’t build a bridge over a creek in Florida you wouldn’t get anywhere.

Yeah, there's limitations though on those 2 parcels that touch Universal Blvd. and are right next to the main plot; I'm not necessarily sure they can put any theme park stuff or CityWalk on those, but I'm not sure. I know that Stan Thomas had to agree to some limitations when he sold other land through Orlando Equity Partners, but again that's just off the top of my head.

I half-expect those 2 parcels to end up as transportation hubs/parking structures. Sort of like at the current resort where there's the 2 giant parking structures connected to the main area.

 

[Scott W.]

Yeah, there's limitations though on those 2 parcels that touch Universal Blvd. and are right next to the main plot; I'm not necessarily sure they can put any theme park stuff or CityWalk on those, but I'm not sure. I know that Stan Thomas had to agree to some limitations when he sold other land through Orlando Equity Partners, but again that's just off the top of my head.

I half-expect those 2 parcels to end up as transportation hubs/parking structures. Sort of like at the current resort where there's the 2 giant parking structures connected to the main area.

This raises the question if they will build 2 parking structures again or if they go for one giant one. I can't see them building two theme parks but I could see a water park and something similar to Disney Springs.

 

[zg44]

This raises the question if they will build 2 parking structures again or if they go for one giant one. I can't see them building two theme parks but I could see a water park and something similar to Disney Springs.

The big difference now is that due to the Skyplex change of zoning/height limitations, the 2nd resort can build structures up to twice as tall as the first resort's buildings. So that's definitely a possibility.

The irony of the Skyplex situation is that now Universal can take advantage of that change, and it means we're likely to see much taller structures in the 2nd resort than the first has.

That's a major reason why I expect Universal to budget the space for 2 dry theme parks and 1 water park in any planning that they do. I'm just not sure of whether the 2nd dry park will be as part of that 604 acres on that map or as part of the Lockheed 280 acres. (Note that the land for the 2nd dry park may just hold worker/backstage buildings until they acquire Lockheed's land or clear other wetlands or something when they actually want to build a 4th dry park, it wouldn't be anytime in the next 15 years though).

 

[Scott W.]

The big difference now is that due to the Skyplex change of zoning/height limitations, the 2nd resort can build structures up to twice as tall as the first resort's buildings. So that's definitely a possibility.

The irony of the Skyplex situation is that now Universal can take advantage of that change, and it means we're likely to see much taller structures in the 2nd resort than the first has.

That's a major reason why I expect Universal to budget the space for 2 dry theme parks and 1 water park in any planning that they do. I'm just not sure of whether the 2nd dry park will be as part of that 604 acres on that map or as part of the Lockheed 280 acres.

That’s a great point.

 

[Teebin]

Yeah, there's limitations though on those 2 parcels that touch Universal Blvd.

Right, but as you said, that Uni Blvd land is important as a resort entrance and perhaps even parking garages, hotels etc.

 

[fryoj]

That’s kind of interesting if it doesn’t connect to Universal Blvd.

That map is missing a couple plots. They definitely have direct access to Universal Blvd.

Well, minus the RoW land that Stan Thomas still owns.

Golf Courses, Water Park, Theme Park (or 2)- a half dozen hotels or more, A timeshare or 2?
Really... whatever TF they want

I really can't see them tying up the amount of land that it would take to build a golf course. There is a 160 acre golf course literally across the street from the new land. If they had thousands of acres I could see one, but between the Shingle creek golf course and Top golf, the golf market is covered in the area. Theres nothing they can accomplish by building their own course that a contract with the Shingle creek course wouldn't accomplish.

Yeah, there's limitations though on those 2 parcels that touch Universal Blvd. and are right next to the main plot; I'm not necessarily sure they can put any theme park stuff or CityWalk on those, but I'm not sure. I know that Stan Thomas had to agree to some limitations when he sold other land through Orlando Equity Partners, but again that's just off the top of my head.

I half-expect those 2 parcels to end up as transportation hubs/parking structures. Sort of like at the current resort where there's the 2 giant parking structures connected to the main area.

Oh I definitely expect those plots to be the garages and transportation hubs. It makes sense even if there isn't a restriction on them.

 

[zg44]

Right, but as you said, that Uni Blvd land is important as a resort entrance and perhaps even parking garages, hotels etc.

Okay, so here's the main plot of 604 acres with the smaller plots near Universal Blvd. also shown as the main part of the 2nd resort. The black line is Kirkman extension, and the blue line is the creek separating the main plot from the other plots.

That green outlined part of 33 acres is also part of UCPM III, so they could buy that to combine with the 15.5 to make a sizeable 48.5 acre plot next to Universal Blvd./Kirkman.

If Universal can acquire all of the UCPM III land nearby; you're basically looking at 675 acres for the 2nd main resort. And that still isn't including the 40 acres of Lockheed land to the East of Kirkman. If you get all of those plots, you're talking about 715 acres.

 

[youhow2]

What are they going to do about the land right up on the water treatment plant? Will it be park space, backstage or a car park? I can't imagine they'd put a hotel near it.

 

[quinnmac000]

Isn't that land to the NE for sale as well being part of that one mall that's slowly going under?

 

[fryoj]

What are they going to do about the land right up on the water treatment plant? Will it be park space, backstage or a car park? I can't imagine they'd put a hotel near it.

I'm guessing a wall or a berm with any hotels in the area having their parking garages on that side of the building and the hotel designed so the windows don't face that direction.

Isn't that land to the NE for sale as well being part of that one mall that's slowly going under?

If you mean the land at the top right of zg44's pic, thats UCMP owned. It is not the clear land by Artegon.

 

[Andysol]

What are they going to do about the land right up on the water treatment plant? Will it be park space, backstage or a car park? I can't imagine they'd put a hotel near it.

The Wastewater Treatment plant won’t be an issue. They could easily put a hotel there and be fine- although the views would be pretty crappy. See what I did there?
That said, seeing as it’s on an “outside edge” of the property line, it would most likely be backstage or parking like you suggest.

 

[Mad Dog]

The Wastewater Treatment plant won’t be an issue. They could easily put a hotel there and be fine- although the views would be pretty crappy. See what I did there?
That said, seeing as it’s on an “outside edge” of the property line, it would most likely be backstage or parking like you suggest.

I thought we had already decided it would be a Shrek's Swamp themed hotel. Pure Disney like immersion, only really cheap.

 

[Magic-Man]

Why does everyone want a golf course on this land? That just seems really weird to me, to have a universal golf course. Will it be Shrek themed?

 

[quinnmac000]

Why does everyone want a golf course on this land? That just seems really weird to me, to have a universal golf course. Will it be Shrek themed?

Golf courses are easy income and Comcast owns the golf channel and it will give them championship tournaments and other revenue. It will also be an additional activity for guests at the resort.

 

[Andysol]

Why does everyone want a golf course on this land? That just seems really weird to me, to have a universal golf course. Will it be Shrek themed?

Only reason I said a golf course is because @Disneyhead mentioned the possibility of a PGA Hotel. To have a PGA/Golf Channel Hotel and no golf course would be pretty dumb.

I don’t golf, nor do I care about golf, so I’m completely indifferent to the idea.

 

[AlexanderMBush]

Why does everyone want a golf course on this land? That just seems really weird to me, to have a universal golf course. Will it be Shrek themed?

In a way, Golf makes a lot of profit; and considering that Disney has multiple golf courses as-well that I assume make profit, Universal may want to take money from that and also of Top Golf nearby with a full on resort that can sustain PGA/Golf Channel tournaments.

In a way, if they were to do Cirque and PGA/Golf as deluxes and a DWA hotel as a moderate, that could be a good balance for when the southern property gets the third/fourth gate.

 

[JungleSkip]

A golf course gives Uni the ability to say "We have that too" when companies are looking at them vs Disney for conventions at the hotels. Disney has courses on their property, so Universal should have one as well. Not necessarily a big get for the theme park folks, but it's a get for the convention crowd

 

[zg44]

Golf courses are something you build after you're fully "hoteled"; we'll have to wait and see. The reality is that Universal was under-hoteled for so long that now it's barely just getting to passable.

It's a complex equation. Vivendi originally planned for 2 massive golf courses and a lot of timeshares because Vivendi was cash poor and couldn't afford a large-scale hotel buildout. Their balance sheet couldn't withstand adding a lot of debt, and so timeshares and golf courses are naturally much cheaper to build per acre than hotels.

The absolute priority for land is 1) theme parks, 2) hotels, and then every else is a very distant 3.

Why? Because theme parks and hotels generate for more $ per acre than anything else; golf courses and timeshares generate far less $ per acre, and until you've maximized your theme park and hotel buildout, you can't really afford to "waste" land on them unless you're in Vivendi's situation where you just can't afford the debt for theme parks and hotels.

By my math, Universal really needs somewhere around 13,000-15,000 hotel rooms for the 2nd resort if it's planning on a full 3 park 2nd resort (2 dry + 1 water park), and probably 7,000-8,000 hotel rooms if it's just planning 1 large dry and 1 water park. Still, you need to allocate that land first before you get to anything else.

 

[Parkscope Joe]

A golf course gives Uni the ability to say "We have that too" when companies are looking at them vs Disney for conventions at the hotels. Disney has courses on their property, so Universal should have one as well. Not necessarily a big get for the theme park folks, but it's a get for the convention crowd

Alt take: they work on their own 9 hope course and TopGolf like experience to fill the golf requirements for the convention hotels in that area.