UO to discontinue Paper Park Maps

[belloq87]

It can be a bummer without being a massive outrage.

I don't think there is "massive outrage," though. Some of us are expressing that we do think it's a bummer, and that these little losses do eventually add up over time to a lessening of our experience.

You might not care about such changes (which is fine), but some people do (which is also fine).

 

[Tbad556]

I don't think there is "massive outrage," though. Some of us are expressing that we do think it's a bummer, and that these little losses do eventually add up over time to a lessening of our experience.

You might not care about such changes (which is fine), but some people do (which is also fine).

I literally do care though. I've said its a bummer and that I've collected them in the past. I haven't once said otherwise.

I am saying that I think pushing it as new management ruining the parks & a greedy decision, saying the app is completely dysfunctional, etc are all very over-the-top over a theme park doing a thing that most parks had already done and the way society as a whole is already moving. This isn't a Universal exclusive move. All experiences are heading this way.

There's a thing on here in recent years where every little change turns into management tanking the parks and being bumbling fools who know nothing. Legacy Store being replaced with the EU Preview Store? A failure of a business move and wronging the fans. The location of the new park is in Great Britain? 25 pages of arguing about how Universal clearly has no idea what they're doing and how this is a terrible business decision while actual talks about a new freaking park mostly get set aside. E.T. gets an overnight refurb without closing? Somehow a massive mistake that they didn't shut down a fan-favorite attraction for a full month. And so on. Every. Little. Thing. It's exhausting logging on and seeing nothing but overwhelming negativity in every single thread. Nothing about it is fun or enjoyable. And often, a lot of it ignores the reality of situations.

I joined IOACentral way back in the day because I loved reading lore about the parks and hearing stories from Jaws skippers. I made the hop many did to OrlandoUnited because I loved following the construction of things like WWoHP and HRRR and fell in love with the fun hearted community that posted loads of trip reports and photos in the Picture of the Day threads. I don't know when everything turned so negative, but somehow the forums were more positive in the pre-Potter era than the post and I promise it's not because the pre-Potter parks were popping and thriving.

 

[Brian G.]

I don't think there is "massive outrage," though. Some of us are expressing that we do think it's a bummer, and that these little losses do eventually add up over time to a lessening of our experience.

You might not care about such changes (which is fine), but some people do (which is also fine).

Belloq, my initial comment that sparked this all was "hey it sucks, I'm grumpy about it, but I get it". I was on, for lack of a better term, "your side of the argument". LOL

It became a conversation about entertainment cuts and got a little too "sky is falling".

That's where this becomes just a little too much.

 

[UniversalRBLX]

It's exhausting logging on and seeing nothing but overwhelming negativity in every single thread. Nothing about it is fun or enjoyable. And often, a lot of it ignores the reality of situations.

Sure, there are lots of negative comments, but there’s also far more positive comments overall. There are a lot of great things the parks continue to do… we just don’t want a slippery slope of great things either being removed or upcharged.

I visit the parks on a weekly basis, so I don’t think I’m being irrational when I’ve seen a pretty consistent flow of negative experiences paired with great ones as well. I’m not walking around the parks all grumpy, we all love being in them, but there’s been a change over the last year or so that’s not headed in the right way.

 

[Casper Gutman]

Belloq, my initial comment that sparked this all was "hey it sucks, I'm grumpy about it, but I get it". I was on, for lack of a better term, "your side of the argument". LOL

It became a conversation about entertainment cuts and got a little too "sky is falling".

That's where this becomes just a little too much.

Are the stories about the quite significant entertainment cuts that came out today inaccurate? I'd love it if they were.

And sure, each thing, taken on its own, isn't a big deal. But when you have one little thing, plus another little thing, plus another little thing, over and over, ad infinitum... suddenly its not so little anymore. And its a pattern.

And even each of those relatively little things isn't so very little in relation to the overall theme park experience. Universal didn't win me over with individual rides or individual shows, it won me over with a superior guest experience - a superiority primarily attributable to those little things. The seasonal shops and club, the streetmosphere, the goofy parade, the prop shop, the repeatable shows, the overall ability to have a relaxing spur-of-the-moment visit - those little things are what make Uni special.

I don't have deep brand loyalty to Universal. Carl Laemmle isn't a profoundly culturally relevant figure. I don't have emotionally-charged nostalgia for visiting Universal with my family as a child. I don't seek out Universal movies the way I do Pixar or Marvel. Universal has ONE THING going for it - the experience it offers right here, right now.

Quite frankly, its more then a little annoying that whenever something gets removed and some posters express regret over it, there is a reliable cadre who shows up to say that thing always stunk, no one liked it, it was stupid, of course it was removed. It happens over and over and over, and at some point it makes me wonder what is drawing other folks to Universal.

 

[belloq87]

I literally do care though. I've said its a bummer and that I've collected them in the past. I haven't once said otherwise.

I am saying that I think pushing it as new management ruining the parks & a greedy decision, saying the app is completely dysfunctional, etc are all very over-the-top over a theme park doing a thing that most parks had already done and the way society as a whole is already moving. This isn't a Universal exclusive move. All experiences are heading this way.

There's a thing on here in recent years where every little change turns into management tanking the parks and being bumbling fools who know nothing. Legacy Store being replaced with the EU Preview Store? A failure of a business move and wronging the fans. The location of the new park is in Great Britain? 25 pages of arguing about how Universal clearly has no idea what they're doing and how this is a terrible business decision while actual talks about a new freaking park mostly get set aside. E.T. gets an overnight refurb without closing? Somehow a massive mistake that they didn't shut down a fan-favorite attraction for a full month. And so on. Every. Little. Thing. It's exhausting logging on and seeing nothing but overwhelming negativity in every single thread. Nothing about it is fun or enjoyable. And often, a lot of it ignores the reality of situations.

I joined IOACentral way back in the day because I loved reading lore about the parks and hearing stories from Jaws skippers. I made the hop many did to OrlandoUnited because I loved following the construction of things like WWoHP and HRRR and fell in love with the fun hearted community that posted loads of trip reports and photos in the Picture of the Day threads. I don't know when everything turned so negative, but somehow the forums were more positive in the pre-Potter era than the post and I promise it's not because the pre-Potter parks were popping and thriving.

I always go to pains to say that I understand the business rationales for why Universal does things I don't like.

Short of having to make that disclaimer every time I have a critique (and I almost do anyway!), I have to ask people to take it as a given that I understand that.

I would also point out that I have plenty of positive things to say about a variety of topics we discuss on here. My recent trip report to Disneyland and Universal Studios Hollywood was way (WAY!) more filled with positive than negative (about both resorts). Just as an example.

 

[Tbad556]

Sure, there are lots of negative comments, but there’s also far more positive comments overall. There are a lot of great things the parks continue to do… we just don’t want a slippery slope of great things either being removed or upcharged.

I visit the parks on a weekly basis, so I don’t think I’m being irrational when I’ve seen a pretty consistent flow of negative experiences paired with great ones as well. I’m not walking around the parks all grumpy, we all love being in them, but there’s been a change over the last year or so that’s not headed in the right way.

And I promise you, you're not an outlier being on a fan forum for Universal and wanting the parks to remain good.

My personal issue is that things get treated in a way that is frankly disingenuous. Again, Universal, if anything, is late to the getting rid of paper maps party. This can be a bummer without being seen as management ruining the parks we all love and creating a unique-to-Universal situation that makes no sense. Not a single person is in this thread celebrating their removal despite people frequently saying things like "You might not care about such changes" and "there is a reliable cadre who shows up to say that thing always stunk, no one liked it, it was stupid". I don't think the maps were stupid and I'm not stoked to see them leave. None of us are and we keep telling y'all that, but are seemingly ignored. When the "negative parties" won't even genuinely hold a conversation where what is said is genuinely heard, what conversation is there to have other than a simple venting party?

The same thing happened over things like the CityWalk Holiday Village being trimmed back this year. It was "a clear sign of post-pandemic Universal being worse than pre-pandemic Universal" even though the reality of the situation is that post-pandemic Universal was what gave us the exact thing that was being complained about losing.

There's a lot of venting without a lot of real discussion being had and it doesn't make for a healthy, enjoyable, or productive environment. It's why I largely bow out at this point and lurk. You can say there are more positive than negative, and it may even be true, but it doesn't change the fact that I log on and feel nothing but a negative vibe from most threads/posts at this point. It doesn't take the negative being more than the positive for things to feel soured.

 

[Casper Gutman]

And I promise you, you're not an outlier being on a fan forum for Universal and wanting the parks to remain good.

My personal issue is that things get treated in a way that is frankly disingenuous. Again, Universal, if anything, is late to the getting rid of paper maps party. This can be a bummer without being seen as management ruining the parks we all love and creating a unique-to-Universal situation that makes no sense. Not a single person is in this thread celebrating their removal despite people frequently saying things like "You might not care about such changes" and "there is a reliable cadre who shows up to say that thing always stunk, no one liked it, it was stupid". I don't think the maps were stupid and I'm not stoked to see them leave. None of us are and we keep telling y'all that, but are seemingly ignored. When the "negative parties" won't even genuinely hold a conversation where what is said is genuinely heard, what conversation is there to have other than a simple venting party?

The same thing happened over things like the CityWalk Holiday Village being trimmed back this year. It was "a clear sign of post-pandemic Universal being worse than pre-pandemic Universal" even though the reality of the situation is that post-pandemic Universal was what gave us the exact thing that was being complained about losing.

There's a lot of venting without a lot of real discussion being had and it doesn't make for a healthy, enjoyable, or productive environment. It's why I largely bow out at this point and lurk.

You're free to address me directly.

I got the timeline on the Village wrong. I apologized for that. Quite frankly, folks arguing in defense of Uni on certain issues have gotten the timeline wrong in the past and I didn't feel it was worth making it a big deal. The overall point that Holiday offerings are reduced this year stands. I just returned from Uni. The holidays in the Studios are great. Citywalk is pathetic.

My perception, which you are free to dispute, is that you and several other posters do have a strong tendency to denigrate any past offering that Uni cuts - I am thinking of the discussion of the Prop Shop as a very recent example. There are also, as Belloq points out, the constant "business rationale" arguments which are usually based on nothing more then supposition and which EVERY SINGLE POSTER understands.

What stymies discussion is the constant, overwhelming assumption of bad faith on the part of anyone who critiques Uni, even mildly. This post seems to suffer from that.

By the way, saying "other parks do it" when Uni makes a choice that some feel damages the guest experience isn't compelling. I don't spend lots of time and money at other parks - I spend it at Uni. Because of the guest experience at Uni. And this is a Uni board.

 

[belloq87]

I just want to say that it is never my intent to contribute to an atmosphere that anyone finds unpleasant.

I also want to feel like I can be honest about my opinions, as I'd hope anyone here would feel they can be honest.

 

[Casper Gutman]

It's worth adding that I love Uni. I love HHN. I love Mardi Gras. I go to Uni a lot. I recommend it to other people frequently.

None of that means I can't be worried about certain elements of the resort. And this seems like the logical place to discuss that.

 

[Nico]

Honestly, I appreciate you all for having this conversation.

This does seem to be a tension point lately. I really appreciate everyone’s posts on this. Hearing more about everyone’s “why” in this way is really helpful.

I think it’s a great idea that we all return to a baseline understanding of what we have in common, and resume debate.

 

[Tbad556]

You're free to address me directly.

I got the timeline on the Village wrong. I apologized for that. Quite frankly, folks arguing in defense of Uni on certain issues have gotten the timeline wrong in the past and I didn't feel it was worth making it a big deal. The overall point that Holiday offerings are reduced this year stands. I just returned from Uni. The holidays in the Studios are great. Citywalk is pathetic.

My perception, which you are free to dispute, is that you and several other posters do have a strong tendency to denigrate any past offering that Uni cuts - I am thinking of the discussion of the Prop Shop as a very recent example. There are also, as Belloq points out, the constant "business rationale" arguments which are usually based on nothing more then supposition and which EVERY SINGLE POSTER understands.

What stymies discussion is the constant, overwhelming assumption of bad faith on the part of anyone who critiques Uni, even mildly. This post seems to suffer from that.

By the way, saying "other parks do it" when Uni makes a choice that some feel damages the guest experience isn't compelling. I don't spend lots of time and money at other parks - I spend it at Uni. Because of the guest experience at Uni. And this is a Uni board.

I did. I quoted you twice. It wasn't an attempt at being coy or cheeky.

Your perception is wrong and part of my issue. If I express that I dislike a decision, but also don't find it to be the "end of the parks", that somehow makes me the "Universal Defense Squad". I have plenty of gripes. I've previously stated that their lack of announcement for their unique NYE offerings were baffling (this was in regards to the IOA fireworks which I don't believe they ever gave a real announcement), their treatment of TMs post-hurricane were offensively bad, that Fallon/Fast are some of the worst rides to ever exist in the parks, that the parks need more shows desperately, etc. I have plenty of gripes.

You can say everyone understands the business aspects, but then we get posts saying things like "this is why tourism in Orlando is dropping" and it's clear that that's not true.

And my issue with the negativity isn't just Universal based. The Splash thread, for example, is dreadfully annoying to sort through. I think the flowers are incredibly pretty and I like what's going on, but why bother sharing at this point when it's a landmine-riddled thread of hate? The general public will eat it up and it's not going to be some failure on management's end.

Call it bad faith all you want, but I never once said y'all cant rant. I simply said it's miserable to be around and frequently includes blatant inaccuracies like the Holiday Village one or bad faith points like the seasonal clubs/shops and parade ones. I'm just as free to express my displeasure as you are yours. I'll wrap my side of the discussion up though and let y'all resume regular business here because again, not fun for me.

 

[Brian G.]

Are the stories about the quite significant entertainment cuts that came out today inaccurate? I'd love it if they were.

No, they are gone. Never said anything or meant to imply differently.

And sure, each thing, taken on its own, isn't a big deal. But when you have one little thing, plus another little thing, plus another little thing, over and over, ad infinitum... suddenly its not so little anymore. And its a pattern.

I'd have a bigger problem if they weren't massively investing in the parks and other destinations around the world - which they continuously do so.

And even each of those relatively little things isn't so very little in relation to the overall theme park experience. Universal didn't win me over with individual rides or individual shows, it won me over with a superior guest experience - a superiority primarily attributable to those little things.

The seasonal shops and club: still there
the streetmosphere: a lot of it still there
the goofy parade: coming back
the prop shop: gone for the seasonal shop
the repeatable shows: still there
the overall ability to have a relaxing spur-of-the-moment visit: still can

I don't have deep brand loyalty to Universal. Carl Laemmle isn't a profoundly culturally relevant figure. I don't have emotionally-charged nostalgia for visiting Universal with my family as a child. I don't seek out Universal movies the way I do Pixar or Marvel. Universal has ONE THING going for it - the experience it offers right here, right now.

Brand loyalty is dumb - but if there are posts that need some additional context or something is leaning toward being hyperbole, I'm going to respond.

Quite frankly, its more then a little annoying that whenever something gets removed and some posters express regret over it, there is a reliable cadre who shows up to say that thing always stunk, no one liked it, it was stupid, of course it was removed. It happens over and over and over, and at some point it makes me wonder what is drawing other folks to Universal.

Well, because quite frankly, a lot of the arguments come across as bad faith - where we aren't sharing a personal opinion but disguising it as one.

Yes, cuts happen but not all cuts are the same, and some are necessary evils; but they are also heavily investing - which seems to get neglected every time this convo comes up.

Entertainment? Yes, they've cut. But they've also added.

Unfortunately, one of the major reasons a show gets cut is because no one likes it, or it doesn't resonate. Sing It! had multiple incarnations but it never landed. I would feel incredibly bad for the performers when I would walk by them for updates and there was no one in attendance. Mel's Drive-In Show was panned upon arrival. My understanding is that it was going to get retooled but it may be permanently dead now.

But Universal will continuously add and subtract the shows. That's been their MO for the last 5-6 years with street entertainment. I don't see anyone lamenting the loss of the Fish Jugglers, or the Rap Freestylers. Why? because they replaced them with the Beat Builders and Bailos! They continuously adjust.

 

[Casper Gutman]

No, they are gone. Never said anything or meant to imply differently.



I'd have a bigger problem if they weren't massively investing in the parks and other destinations around the world - which they continuously do so.




The seasonal shops and club: still there
the streetmosphere: a lot of it still there
the goofy parade: coming back
the prop shop: gone for the seasonal shop
the repeatable shows: still there
the overall ability to have a relaxing spur-of-the-moment visit: still can


Brand loyalty is dumb - but if there are posts that need some additional context or something is leaning toward being hyperbole, I'm going to respond.



Well, because quite frankly, a lot of the arguments come across as bad faith - where we aren't sharing a personal opinion but disguising it as one.

Yes, cuts happen but not all cuts are the same, and some are necessary evils; but they are also heavily investing - which seems to get neglected every time this convo comes up.

Entertainment? Yes, they've cut. But they've also added.

Unfortunately, one of the major reasons a show gets cut is because no one likes it, or it doesn't resonate. Sing It! had multiple incarnations but it never landed. I would feel incredibly bad for the performers when I would walk by them for updates and there was no one in attendance. Mel's Drive-In Show was panned upon arrival. My understanding is that it was going to get retooled but it may be permanently dead now.

But Universal will continuously add and subtract the shows. That's been their MO for the last 5-6 years with street entertainment. I don't see anyone lamenting the loss of the Fish Jugglers, or the Rap Freestylers. Why? because they replaced them with the Beat Builders and Bailos! They continuously adjust.

I don't assume bad faith on the part of you or most other posters on this board. You and TBad have just made clear you assume it on my part. I would ask that the benefit of the doubt I extend to other posters be extended to me.

I do disagree quite strongly with your framing of certain issues. It is fair to judge Universal on the product they are offering RIGHT NOW, the product for which they are dramatically raising prices. In 2023, there is no parade, no lagoon show, three massive empty theaters, cuts to entertainment with no announced replacements, a full land at IOA shuttered with no construction underway, a ride running without significant portions of the experience operating, etc. That's the product they are offering. Yes, they are likely adding a parade and a lagoon show relatively soon and might add other entertainment offerings at some point, Those offerings should be evaluated and appreciated when they open. That simply DOES NOT alter what they are offering today and what they have offered for some time. The current offerings are a result of conscious CHOICES Universal made.

The Streetmosphere in IOA was one of the very, very few live entertainment offerings in that park. I would argue there is not a "lot of" streetmosphere left after the cuts of the last month. As far as I know, the Studio taxi driver is the only remnant.

To say that the Prop Shop is gone because of the Tribute Store is far from the whole story. Universal decided to move the non-HHN Tribute to a smaller location to free up the Mummy line. I'm not wild about that, but I understand the choice. They then briefly moved the Prop Shop to the otherwise useless Brown Derby, proving both the relocated Tribute and Prop Shop could coexist. Not maintaining this situation was a CHOICE.

I do not feel the Coconut Club this year was the same as the Red and Green (I'm very glad the Sirens were invited for six nights). I was just there.

These are just a few of the issues on which I disagree with you. It's all opinions, just as your arguments are opinions as well. Neither of us has any legitimate reason to assume the other is acting in bad faith or to be hostile to the other poster.

 

[Nico]

They then briefly moved the Prop Shop to the otherwise useless Brown Derby, proving both the relocated Tribute and Prop Shop could coexist. Not maintaining this situation was a CHOICE.

If it was making money, it would be open. That I believe.

I also agree with a lot of your comments about framing. I think I view this as an in between stage and so my expectations are adjusted. I’m also not a local so that’s in consideration. From your perspective as someone in the area, the quality you are receiving is less while we wait. That framework is helpful for our discussion.

 

[Casper Gutman]

If it was making money, it would be open. That I believe.

Stores in a well-run theme park serve a wide variety of functions. Making money is the top one for most, but you also need stores that function as attractions.

 

[Nico]

Stores in a well-run theme park serve a wide variety of functions. Making money is the top one for most, but you also need stores that function as attractions.

I would assume they would have metrics for a successful attraction as well. It didn’t seem like there were a ton of people going in (in some of the vlogs I watched) unfortunately. Did you see a lot of people in there when you went?

 

[WebHead1138]

Have you guys noticed that Rip Ride Rocket and Transformers attractions have been absorbed into the New York area? Idk I found that interesting. Production Central no longer exists so they had to put it somewhere I guess lol ‍

 

[Freak]

News happens today and I’m late to the party with this. I’ll be the millionth person saying that I hate this. I understand why but I still hate it.

I really don’t like how physical things are going full digital. Physical media should be embraced as much as possible.

 

[sonoma15]

Let's just be real - this is the only actual loss that has mattered