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Harmonious

Disney research discovered that most guests are staring at their phones so much trying to schedule fast passes and dining ressies that they don't notice sightlines any longer. Breathed new life in the imagineering department with those constraints lifted
I feel this is 100 percent legit
 
If, in the future, I ever see a nit picking post by a super Disney fan criticizing Universal for not having pure thematic sightlines, I will have a one word reply to their nit picking.....'HARMONIOUS"...shouted far and wide.
Um, that only works if said fan gives a pass to the Harmonious barges.

I think these are atrocious and at Universal, Disney, Sea World, etc it doesn’t matter, I’ll always call out sight line/thematic integrity issues. GotG and Soarin are issues. Tron’s Show building is an issue. And yes, Hogwarts is an issue from the perspective of it not being fully themed.
 
And yes, Hogwarts is an issue from the perspective of it not being fully themed.

How were they going to hide the building more without making the castle 1.5-3x bigger, and completely obliterating the scale of everything else around it? If they continued with the rockwork all the way around the castle would look smaller, if they made the castle bigger, you run into budget and space issues, you then also have to consider building the rest of Hogsmeade to a bigger scale, inflating the budget even further and introducing additional design problems, such as the height ceiling for the area, which If I recall correctly the castle is about as tall as it can be anyways.



I'm sure they tried to get the big show building hid the best they could. Some things really just aren't practical and sometimes there is more to consider in design of things then us fans care to think about when criticizing the design of things in the parks. I'm not saying I disagree with you, but I can understand there may be additional reasons why Hogwarts might have been okayed as is. Money, or budget for where Universal was when they were building Hogsmeade is and was a perfectly valid reason as well.


Back to HarmoniUS:

The budget for personnel and additional engineering and design work required to move the barges in and out of the lagoon each night... Right of the bat, That means you have to hire additional full time staff to move and install those things every day, probably easily doubling or more (and I honestly, absolutely believe the crew required for such a task based on photos we have would be easily more than double) the daily expenses needed to run the show. The equipment on those barges look extremely complex. Engineering them to move daily, and then hiring a crew to install them each day for the sake of being able to see across the lagoon for a few hours each day before they must be installed again is really an absolutely insane proposal, and by the look of the equipment on just that one barge, more than likely impossible for running this specific show, or at the very least adds the chance o greatly increasing the margin of error for misfires and things that can go wrong. It would certainly be additional complexity for little added value, and they even acknowledged the plain barges would be an eyesore by giving them active daytime fountains.


I saw someone mention "Weenies".


Using the fountains to hide them does not delete their function, one could argue that the fountains blocking your view across the park adds value to the discovery for the first time visitor as they make their way around the lagoon into a sightline that would allow them to see the various facades, pavilions, etc. Hiding weenies until you get closer to them, "The reveal" is also a design trick used to create atmosphere in parks, and it's one that Disney in particular is quite used to using. The fountains obscuring the view will add the value of exploration, discovery and mystery for the first time guest as they make their way around the lagoon. However well the fountains hide the show, the question of what they are hiding will also build excitement throughout the day and keep guest curious and intrigued about the show.



Really, this thread is killing me with how harsh the critique is for a brand new show no one has even seen yet, that isn't even fully installed yet, that we have 2 fairly plain pieces of concept art for. Give them a chance to build the darn thing, see if the show is worth altering the old sightlines before tearing them down doing so. I legit feel bad for anyone who worked on the show who might be reading through this thread... Or any of the other various ones across the message boards.

Before you decide to be so negative, I'd implore any of you to try and figure out the logistics and do a mock design, budget and your own R&D on a lagoon show, then mock program it and make it good. Let's see your concepts and let's judge how realistic they are to execute. If not, give the professionals some room before you talk so negatively about their product that isn't even finished yet.

It'll be one thing if it's an F&F scenario, but it really looks fairly impressive just from the equipment we see on the first barge... I will judge them by what they do with it, rather than based on the idea that they should've done something different that might've been technically impossible anyways.
 
I don't really agree with any of that, but it's an admirable defense. I'm not being sarcastic, either.

The reason some people -- myself included -- are having such a negative reaction to this is because we know Disney is capable of designing and executing a fantastic nighttime spectacular that doesn't negatively impact the ambiance of World Showcase Lagoon. We know this because they've already done it.

They should have done it again.
 
How were they going to hide the building more without making the castle 1.5-3x bigger, and completely obliterating the scale of everything else around it? If they continued with the rockwork all the way around the castle would look smaller, if they made the castle bigger, you run into budget and space issues, you then also have to consider building the rest of Hogsmeade to a bigger scale, inflating the budget even further and introducing additional design problems, such as the height ceiling for the area, which If I recall correctly the castle is about as tall as it can be anyways.



I'm sure they tried to get the big show building hid the best they could. Some things really just aren't practical and sometimes there is more to consider in design of things then us fans care to think about when criticizing the design of things in the parks. I'm not saying I disagree with you, but I can understand there may be additional reasons why Hogwarts might have been okayed as is. Money, or budget for where Universal was when they were building Hogsmeade is and was a perfectly valid reason as well.


Back to HarmoniUS:

The budget for personnel and additional engineering and design work required to move the barges in and out of the lagoon each night... Right of the bat, That means you have to hire additional full time staff to move and install those things every day, probably easily doubling or more (and I honestly, absolutely believe the crew required for such a task based on photos we have would be easily more than double) the daily expenses needed to run the show. The equipment on those barges look extremely complex. Engineering them to move daily, and then hiring a crew to install them each day for the sake of being able to see across the lagoon for a few hours each day before they must be installed again is really an absolutely insane proposal, and by the look of the equipment on just that one barge, more than likely impossible for running this specific show, or at the very least adds the chance o greatly increasing the margin of error for misfires and things that can go wrong. It would certainly be additional complexity for little added value, and they even acknowledged the plain barges would be an eyesore by giving them active daytime fountains.


I saw someone mention "Weenies".


Using the fountains to hide them does not delete their function, one could argue that the fountains blocking your view across the park adds value to the discovery for the first time visitor as they make their way around the lagoon into a sightline that would allow them to see the various facades, pavilions, etc. Hiding weenies until you get closer to them, "The reveal" is also a design trick used to create atmosphere in parks, and it's one that Disney in particular is quite used to using. The fountains obscuring the view will add the value of exploration, discovery and mystery for the first time guest as they make their way around the lagoon. However well the fountains hide the show, the question of what they are hiding will also build excitement throughout the day and keep guest curious and intrigued about the show.



Really, this thread is killing me with how harsh the critique is for a brand new show no one has even seen yet, that isn't even fully installed yet, that we have 2 fairly plain pieces of concept art for. Give them a chance to build the darn thing, see if the show is worth altering the old sightlines before tearing them down doing so. I legit feel bad for anyone who worked on the show who might be reading through this thread... Or any of the other various ones across the message boards.

Before you decide to be so negative, I'd implore any of you to try and figure out the logistics and do a mock design, budget and your own R&D on a lagoon show, then mock program it and make it good. Let's see your concepts and let's judge how realistic they are to execute. If not, give the professionals some room before you talk so negatively about their product that isn't even finished yet.

It'll be one thing if it's an F&F scenario, but it really looks fairly impressive just from the equipment we see on the first barge... I will judge them by what they do with it, rather than based on the idea that they should've done something different that might've been technically impossible anyways.
My issue with Hogwarts has always been that they left it unthemed in spots where all it would take is a little paint to finish up the job, not any of what you were saying.
 
I don't really agree with any of that, but it's an admirable defense. I'm not being sarcastic, either.

The reason some people -- myself included -- are having such a negative reaction to this is because we know Disney is capable of designing and executing a fantastic nighttime spectacular that doesn't negatively impact the ambiance of World Showcase Lagoon. We know this because they've already done it.

They should have done it again.

They're changing the ambience of the lagoon. They are putting a new "weenie" in, a new centerpiece for the park. They are making conscientious change. I'm arguing it's not yet certain that the daytime fountains are a negative impact, it's not fair to call it yet as it is still under construction. They've thought of the impact, and people are judging their solution for the barges, (which I can agree in native form are unsightly) before it's even fully installed to include the daytime fountains. Epcot is being overhauled, and fountains as a centerpiece and part of a new show is just one of the many things that have come out of that.


Saying they "should've" done anything is unfair to the imagineers and counterproductive to this discussion. Like I said, you figure it out and account for everything they have to when designing such things. There's a reason why you won't see a touring production to the caliber of "KA". The theater must be purpose-built for that kind of experience. If these barges aren't moving, other than budgetary reasons I'm assuming there's some good technical reason for it. The pic of just that one barge is LOADED with gear. I for one, can't wait to see what they do with it, and what the end result ends up looking like.


The end may certainly justify the means. If to deliver a show of a certain caliber they elected to change their sightlines around, so be it. Let's judge them for their solution when it's ready, rather than complain that they are changing the park and should've chose a different route based on something that is a matter of opinion and nostalgia and neglects the technical aspects of show planning and park design.

They are Disney, they literally wrote the book. I trust them, despite many gaffs throughout the years to do right for the parks.
 
They're changing the ambience of the lagoon. They are putting a new "weenie" in, a new centerpiece for the park. They are making conscientious change. I'm arguing it's not yet certain that the daytime fountains are a negative impact, it's not fair to call it yet as it is still under construction. They've thought of the impact, and people are judging their solution for the barges, (which I can agree in native form are unsightly) before it's even fully installed to include the daytime fountains. Epcot is being overhauled, and fountains as a centerpiece and part of a new show is just one of the many things that have come out of that.


Saying they "should've" done anything is unfair to the imagineers and counterproductive to this discussion. Like I said, you figure it out and account for everything they have to when designing such things. There's a reason why you won't see a touring production to the caliber of "KA". The theater must be purpose-built for that kind of experience. If these barges aren't moving, other than budgetary reasons I'm assuming there's some good technical reason for it. The pic of just that one barge is LOADED with gear. I for one, can't wait to see what they do with it, and what the end result ends up looking like.


The end may certainly justify the means. If to deliver a show of a certain caliber they elected to change their sightlines around, so be it. Let's judge them for their solution when it's ready, rather than complain that they are changing the park and should've chose a different route based on something that is a matter of opinion and nostalgia and neglects the technical aspects of show planning and park design.

They are Disney, they literally wrote the book. I trust them, despite many gaffs throughout the years to do right for the parks.
There will be 3 more of these big ass things out there and all they will do during the day is be fountains that block views across the lagoon. Nothing about that is a positive.
 
I don't really agree with any of that, but it's an admirable defense. I'm not being sarcastic, either.

The reason some people -- myself included -- are having such a negative reaction to this is because we know Disney is capable of designing and executing a fantastic nighttime spectacular that doesn't negatively impact the ambiance of World Showcase Lagoon. We know this because they've already done it.

They should have done it again.

The thing is, I'm not entirely sure that they have. Illuminations is a show that, at least to me, never really worked.

As I've written in the past, I was never a big fan. The biggest problem I always had with it was how hard the globe's projections were to make out. I have great eyesight (20/10 vision), but many times the images were darn near impossible to see. Which would be fine and all if the show had tons of fireworks to make up for that. Looking at this video, there's a full four minutes of nothing but projections once the globe heads out at the 4 minute mark.



When the camera is zoomed out to guest level, barely anything is visible. Part of the problem is probably because of the lagoon's massive size. Unless you parked yourself near The American Adventure, you never got the full experience because the globe was just too far away.

I'm hoping that once this is all said and done, the bigger barges will lead to more ideal viewing locations in countries like China and the U.K.
 
If they be fountains, I'll probably really like them. If they not run all the time, I will no likey.

Judgement reserved, but I agree with @youhow2 that it seems like making something nice looking during the day was part of their decision... As I've said before, this fountain display has the possibility of being a selfie magnet when it's all done.

I'm okay with something new if it's pretty.

This ain't like the giant box building for Guardians in the middle of the water. If it blocks your view of one country from your current vantage, walk a few meters to the left or right. It will, just like the islands, only be blocking what is behind it from your current vantage point, which, ya know, changes as you walk around the lagoon.
 
If they be fountains, I'll probably really like them. If they not run all the time, I will no likey.

Judgement reserved, but I agree with @youhow2 that it seems like making something nice looking during the day was part of their decision... As I've said before, this fountain display has the possibility of being a selfie magnet when it's all done.

I'm okay with something new if it's pretty.

This ain't like the giant box building for Guardians in the middle of the water. If it blocks your view of one country from your current vantage, walk a few meters to the left or right. It will, just like the islands, only be blocking what is behind it from your current vantage point, which, ya know, changes as you walk around the lagoon.
The fountains are the key here

However, I do wish the barges were better designed better to almost be sculptures
 
I just don't know how fountains are possibly going to be able to cover up angles like this one...
HarmonioUS_Full_40413.jpg

... and from any point around the lagoon (other than in front of the primary viewing areas), you'll probably be able to see this angle on one or more of the barges.

I remain open to the possibility of being wrong.

The thing is, I'm not entirely sure that they have. Illuminations is a show that, at least to me, never really worked.

As I've written in the past, I was never a big fan. The biggest problem I always had with it was how hard the globe's projections were to make out. I have great eyesight (20/10 vision), but many times the images were darn near impossible to see. Which would be fine and all if the show had tons of fireworks to make up for that. Looking at this video, there's a full four minutes of nothing but projections once the globe heads out at the 4 minute mark.

When the camera is zoomed out to guest level, barely anything is visible. Part of the problem is probably because of the lagoon's massive size. Unless you parked yourself near The American Adventure, you never got the full experience because the globe was just too far away.

I'm hoping that once this is all said and done, the bigger barges will lead to more ideal viewing locations in countries like China and the U.K.

I never had an issue with the size of the globe, and I think the show was a masterpiece.

But fair enough!
 
I'm strange, but I sort of dug looking at the machinery.. My family and I had a wonderful day in the park. I am the one who enjoys being outside, taking pictures and such and there is only one out there, but I had no issues.

harm1sm.jpgharm2sm.jpg
 
Some folks on Magic are saying that Disney is apparently not planning to run the show until sometime in 2022... because they feel they didn't get their full money's worth from Epcot Forever and want to milk that some more.

So potentially prepare for a year+ with barges just sitting in the lagoon, unused.
 
Some folks on Magic are saying that Disney is apparently not planning to run the show until sometime in 2022... because they feel they didn't get their full money's worth from Epcot Forever and want to milk that some more.

So potentially prepare for a year+ with barges just sitting in the lagoon, unused.
Lol that would make no sense
 
Some folks on Magic are saying that Disney is apparently not planning to run the show until sometime in 2022... because they feel they didn't get their full money's worth from Epcot Forever and want to milk that some more.

So potentially prepare for a year+ with barges just sitting in the lagoon, unused.
Advertising the "New Normal" for Disney...."Ugly is the new Beauty.".....heh, the hardcore fan will drink that kool aid. :lol: ;)
 
Some folks on Magic are saying that Disney is apparently not planning to run the show until sometime in 2022... because they feel they didn't get their full money's worth from Epcot Forever and want to milk that some more.

So potentially prepare for a year+ with barges just sitting in the lagoon, unused.

I mean considering Epcot Forever is just some kites and new music recordings I dunno how much they think they need to recoup? I could see them punt the show to 2022 for other reasons: social distancing, saving budget on a show that would probably cost several tens of thousands of dollars to perform nightly, and spacing out the cost to construct the rest of the show over multiple quarters.
 
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