So Many Changes at Walt Disney World

[Parkscope Joe]

I think MK/Epcot are doing within fractional amounts of their projections (which could be up or down for the full year, dunno.)

DHS is not meeting projections and under-performing. No question.

AK? Dunno, seems like it could be down but also that it was expected/projected to be down when ROL failed to materialize this year.

I agree that MK and Epcot are 'fine' with attendance, DHS and DAK are the outliers. It's a complicated issue, for sure. I just don't know the business model they've set up is functional. I don't say that thinking the company is going to go bankrupt but instead more short sighted profit decisions being made.

 

[epcyclopedia]

Well both DHS and AK were funds directed away from Epcot by Eisner. Imagine if Epcot had expanded as planned. Eisner was known within the company for being notoriously anti-Epcot. The unfinished pavilions lefts unfinished, walled up, uninstalled benches left in storage, "no more money on Epcot" from day 1 of his tenure.

It looks like they're finally coming back around to invest in Epcot.

And it was short term before long term. Epcot was made to hold twice as many people as MK. It was designed to organically expand. Instead these smaller parks popped up without the ready to go infrastructure.

 

[Mad Dog]

In Genneway's new book on Jay Stein (Universal), Stein basically says the same. He says Eisner made a mistake in building AK & DHS (MGM) at WDW.

 

[bob albert]

In Genneway's new book on Jay Stein (Universal), Stein basically says the same. He says Eisner made a mistake in building AK & DHS (MGM) at WDW.

I dunno If I would call it a mistake. The additional parks regardless of number of attractions have boosted the number of lengthy vacations and overall spend in the region. The existing parks with more attractions would still not automatically be thought of by guests as needing a longer vacation. Plus it give Disney a need to fill more areas out or more options to insert relevant lands/ips.

 

[epcyclopedia]

I dunno If I would call it a mistake. The additional parks regardless of number of attractions have boosted the number of lengthy vacations and overall spend in the region. The existing parks with more attractions would still not automatically be thought of by guests as needing a longer vacation. Plus it give Disney a need to fill more areas out or more options to insert relevant lands/ips.

But growing length of stay has been a struggle. As the attendance numbers show, a large portion are skipping AK or DHS or both.

Meanwhile Epcot has been doing exactly what it was intended to do - plus some. The year Epcot opened Disney thought its optimistic projections would put the park 6-8 million guests. It got nearly 12 million (a number it has had to slowly recoup since Eisner intervened in its planned growth and renovation cycle.)

Compare that to an Eisner park - California Adventure - which was projected to get 8 million the first year (think about that logic - Epcot's timid projection with THAT park) and it only reached 6 million and struggled even worse after the first year.

And then add back how the old group included massive infrastructure for epcot despite the lower projection. No crowded walkways, no lack of services like transportation. Compare that to the Eisner parks...

It's bad decision making.

 

[epcyclopedia]

Not to mention guest spending is significantly higher at Epcot.

 

[GAcoaster]

I don't think Studios or DAK were necessarily mistakes, the mistakes were in HOW they were built. Instead of being well planned and fully funded, they were built on the cheap (as Disney parks go) and built as reaction to competition rather than built as logical extensions of the brands and offerings of WDW.

Studios was built as quickly as possible to try and beat Universal to the punch. It was never meant to be a full park, but it was sold to the public as a full park and has had to try and play catch up ever since.

Animal Kingdom was built to try and stop guests from leaving property to go to Busch Gardens and SeaWorld. Guests kept saying they wanted to see animals and they wanted thrill rides, so DAK was supposed to give them that. The plan for DAK was animals and thrill rides but going over budget and having part of the budget diverted to build AKL took away the thrill aspects planned and they ended up with a glorified zoo.

The costs of building and then fixing those parks (which guests complained didn't have enough attractions) has made EPCOT suffer. It was poor planning and decision making on Disney's part. They would have been off waiting and better planning, financing and constructing 1 additional park that was fully fleshed out and still investing properly in the other two.

 

[Nick]

If anything, DHS is the pig of WDW. The resort as a whole could've done without the park, but DAK really adds a lot of diversity within the Orlando market imo. The closest thing is BGT, but that's an hour and a half up the road. USF though is only 10 minutes away by highway, which is where DHS fails.

 

[SeventyOne]

If anything, DHS is the pig of WDW. The resort as a whole could've done without the park, but DAK really adds a lot of diversity within the Orlando market imo. The closest thing is BGT, but that's an hour and a half up the road. USF though is only 10 minutes away by highway, which is where DHS fails.

But all reports say DAK mostly just cannabalized guests from other WDW parks. Would have been more effective to pour a quarter of that money into a massive MK expansion (also DHS, I suppose, they were committed at that point). I get that the DisneyTwitterverse loves DAK, but it was expensive to build, is expensive to run, and has never connected on a primal level with the vast majority of guests like MK always has and EPCOT used to. It's a white elephant, pun intended. Would Beastly Kingdom have moved that needle? Maybe. But they went cheap, we'll never know.

 

[SeventyOne]

Appears attendance is going up after Christmas. I think the issues are

1) Weird timing of Christmas and NYE. More people will take off this coming week and early 2017 than travel to WDW for Christmas.

2) AP blackout dates so APs didn't fill in

3) Reduced CM passes and blackout dates. Can't get mom and dad in MK anymore.

Agreed with all of these, particularly #1. Half the main feeder state--Florida itself--was in school Christmas Eve week but is out next week. First time in my memory for that. Between that, Three Kings Day and an earliest possible Marathon Weekend, I expect next week to be about as busy as this week.

That said, I do think tiered pricing also plays a role. Fall Break--a new phenomenon WDW price increases have yet to account for--was slammed. Holiday level slammed. Lately MLK Day weekend also quite busy. The trend seems to be opting for shorter long-weekend trips at non-peak prices rather than a week at the most expensive rates. As you say, not all of it, but I think a factor.

Also, UK pound not doing well, had a Facebook friend bemoaning that fact yesterday (his annual trip very much in jeopardy). I hear Brazil still not recovered either. Just one more factor.

Also keep in mind, even without closings, my Disney newbie college friend took his fiancee yesterday. At 9:00 a.m., 2+ hour wait for Space Mountain (or, in his words, "a roller coaster"). Also pissed he spent 30 minutes to ride Stitch ("it didn't even move! and they spray some stench on you..."). Not likely to drop any coin again on WDW until he has kids and peer pressure makes him do it. They did love Jock Lindsey's tho.

 

[Nick]

But all reports say DAK mostly just cannabalized guests from other WDW parks. Would have been more effective to pour a quarter of that money into a massive MK expansion (also DHS, I suppose, they were committed at that point). I get that the DisneyTwitterverse loves DAK, but it was expensive to build, is expensive to run, and has never connected on a primal level with the vast majority of guests like MK always has and EPCOT used to. It's a white elephant, pun intended. Would Beastly Kingdom have moved that needle? Maybe. But they went cheap, we'll never know.

But you are talking about the world we live in, where DHS also exists. I'm talking about an alternate universe where DHS never was/should've been built.

DAK would've been the first new WDW park in 16 years if DHS/MGM wasn't rushed simply to beat Uni. Epcot likely would've ended up greatly expanded and a 16 year gap would've built a ton of hype.

 

[Mad Dog]

Concerning DHS, AK & Calif. Adventure, Jay Stein said "Disney wasted a lot of money on inferior themes".....(Trivia Note: Disney actually filmed segments of one of their movies on the streets of Universal Studios Orlando because they considered the Streets of America at DHS (MGM)inferior for filming purposes)

 

[epcyclopedia]

There was a reason the primary inspirations for DHS and AK were scrapped as Epcot pavilions. They didn't hold their own...

Except to Eisner, who decided they should be whole parks.

 

[Parkscope Joe]

There was a reason the primary inspirations for DHS and AK were scrapped as Epcot pavilions. They didn't hold their own...

Except to Eisner, who decided they should be whole parks.

Ok I have a pet theory that can easily be proven wrong but I want to see what you think. We've seen a lot of concept art of rejected Word Showcase and Future World pavilions over the years. Yet we've only seen one(?) piece of external art for a Entertainment/Movie pavilion. Was there ever going to be such a pavilion or (my pet theory, again) was this piece of concept art developed to support the idea Eisner wasn't "borrowing" the Universal concepts he heard about while he was at Paramount. Sort of tail wag the dog.

 

[epcyclopedia]

The storyline is that Sklar and Bright were tasked with creating new pavilion concepts and Great Moments at the Movies (said to be akin to Spaceship Earth in ride kinetics) was supposed to be an educational attraction about the golden age of film making and the process. The other concept they put out was Wonders of Life, but that was finalized later by others (and notably originally had an omnimover type ride as well.)

Bright's background in film at Disney (exectuvie producer for pretty much all the Epcot films) points to there being some truth in the story.

 

[Parkscope Joe]

The storyline is that Sklar and Bright were tasked with creating new pavilion concepts and Great Moments at the Movies (said to be akin to Spaceship Earth in ride kinetics) was supposed to be an educational attraction about the golden age of film making and the process. The other concept they put out was Wonders of Life, but that was finalized later by others (and notably originally had an omnimover type ride as well.)

Bright's background in film at Disney (exectuvie producer for pretty much all the Epcot films) points to there being some truth in the story.

Awesome, thanks.

 

[s8film40]

Really both DAK and DHS were both built as a reaction to competition. Epcot was even built as a reaction to criticism.

 

[hawkeye253]

Have not read everything

I bought Beachclub DVC at $65 per point.

I go there every year. Someone at the pool asked me if the parks where crowded.

I looked at her and said "parks you mean there are parks here"

Shows you how memory fades. Vaguely remember a Magic Kingdom.

Another time we were talking about buffets. Someone said either Golden Corral buffet is getting better or Disney's buffets are going downhill. I don't know, I don't eat at any of them.

 

[Mad Dog]

The NY Times just reported that Bob Iger has agreed to a 1 year extension.

 

[belloq87]

The NY Times just reported that Bob Iger has agreed to a 1 year extension.

I'm not terribly thrilled, but this is not surprising when we consider that all of the potential successors he was grooming have been systematically removed from the company over the last few years.