The Icons and Lore Thread

[Brian G.]

Huge LT update, but you'll have to cross fandoms to find it. Interesting post in the Society of Explorers & Adventurers Facebook group from local legend Right Guard Ian:

"It appears as if Universal/Halloween Horror Nights is developing their own S.E.A.! The International Institute of Antiquities and Exploration (I.I A.E.) No idea how far it will reach into further lore, but Boris Shuster seems to have been busy!!! The two idols from the past two HHN Tribute Stores have vanished from his office, BUT a consiparcy bulliten board has appeared! So…time to decipher what is new in the world of Legendary Truth!"

The post is accompanied by copious pictures of the new bulletin board in Boris' office.

Personally, I have no idea what this could be leading to, but I do find this a lot of work just for intraoffice amusement or even fan service.

I believe it's Tribute Store related.

 

[SeventyOne]

Link please?

ZuckerNerd don't make it easy to link, but in this group: The Society of Explorers and Adventurers (S.E.A.) | Facebook

 

[pumpkinbot343]

Just for funsies (for anyone interested), how would you do some sort of overarching story for a “Cinematic Universe” franchise of movies, or alternatively a series of TV Shows or video games (not an HHN event itself) featuring the icons as central in the plot? (Not sure if I asked this in the thread before)

 

[GA-MBIT]

Just for funsies (for anyone interested), how would you do some sort of overarching story for a “Cinematic Universe” franchise of movies, or alternatively a series of TV Shows or video games (not an HHN event itself) featuring the icons as central in the plot? (Not sure if I asked this in the thread before)

This is just my thoughts, I don't wanna rain on anyone's fun, and I am definitely not the demographic for this post ; but I feel like the question is about as outlandish as suggesting an MCU-style format for Cereal Mascots or something haha.

None of these characters could hold a show or film. To be frank, these characters just aren't that interesting. And that's purposeful. They're brands. Generic entities designed for use on billboards and park maps, based off of only the most common pop culture signifiers for the Horror genre. They're made to be recognizable as "Scary" at a glance to the widest audience possible and little else. They do that job pretty well! But that comes at the cost of depth and originality.

It's writing your story with the base layer being to connect the lore of the Hamburglar and the Burger King. It just misses the actual purpose (and strengths!) of these characters entirely imo.

 

[pumpkinbot343]

Oh believe me, I’m very aware that this type of thing is unrealistic, it’s just a fun idea I think could be a little amusement.

Anyways, here’s my own (unfinished) idea for a sort of overarching story; mainly thinking of a video game sense (as usual I didn’t really bother with realism, as one particular icon that can’t be used is present here):

The story itself would revolve heavily around the 2005 concept of Terra Cruentus, a civilization that literally thrived on fresh human blood. In this storyline, there were 7 gods (OC characters) commanding 6 realms of Terra, one of them being a Mother Gaea type who rules the whole world, and their powers were linked to 7 (technically 6) relics: a “Blood Vessel”, a broken Chime, the Gorewood Skulls, the Terra Blade, a Goblet, and the symbol of Terra Cruentus itself. When the civilization fell, the gods went to sleep and the relics were swept away to various places. Some of the monsters were also swept away.

Somehow these relics came to Earth somehow in different locations. The slumbering gods of Terra Cruentus were slowly planning to get their relics back and regain their powers. However this is where the Icons come in. Not willing to be subjected to a civilization that rules them, Jack the Clown recruits 5 fearsome characters; The Caretaker, The Director, The Storyteller, Bloody Mary, and The Usher; as part of his villain group and they work together to take advantage of the chaos, kill the gods, gain the powers of Cruentus and rule the world. However, unbeknownst to anybody, Bloody Mary secretly plans to betray the Icons, either by waiting for the right time to backstab them or just simply letting them be picked off one by one by the hero of the picture, so that she can steal the power for herself and kill the gods then take over Terra Cruentus as its new and eternal Terra Queen.

And as for the presentation of the overarching story, this plot would be featured in several movies or levels where each Icon does their own schtick, control a bunch of monsters from 05’s event, and are picked off by the heroes one by one until the final or penultimate stage where they reach Jack himself, and then Mary does something (assuming she’s not extra dead or imprisoned at this point). Maybe an encounter with the gods later, IDK. And as for the TV option, was thinking of something as a “Monster of the Week” show harkening back to shows like Buffy with the Icons serving as the “Arc Villains” of the first two seasons popping in periodically between episodes here and there.

 

[GA-MBIT]

Oh believe me, I’m very aware that this type of thing is unrealistic, it’s just a fun idea I think could be a little amusement.

Anyways, here’s my own (unfinished) idea for a sort of overarching story; mainly thinking of a video game sense (as usual I didn’t really bother with realism, as one particular icon that can’t be used is present here):

The story itself would revolve heavily around the 2005 concept of Terra Cruentus, a civilization that literally thrived on fresh human blood. In this storyline, there were 7 gods (OC characters) commanding 6 realms of Terra, one of them being a Mother Gaea type who rules the whole world, and their powers were linked to 7 (technically 6) relics: a “Blood Vessel”, a broken Chime, the Gorewood Skulls, the Terra Blade, a Goblet, and the symbol of Terra Cruentus itself. When the civilization fell, the gods went to sleep and the relics were swept away to various places. Some of the monsters were also swept away.

Somehow these relics came to Earth somehow in different locations. The slumbering gods of Terra Cruentus were slowly planning to get their relics back and regain their powers. However this is where the Icons come in. Not willing to be subjected to a civilization that rules them, Jack the Clown recruits 5 fearsome characters; The Caretaker, The Director, The Storyteller, Bloody Mary, and The Usher; as part of his villain group and they work together to take advantage of the chaos, kill the gods, gain the powers of Cruentus and rule the world. However, unbeknownst to anybody, Bloody Mary secretly plans to betray the Icons, either by waiting for the right time to backstab them or just simply letting them be picked off one by one by the hero of the picture, so that she can steal the power for herself and kill the gods then take over Terra Cruentus as its new and eternal Terra Queen.

And as for the presentation of the overarching story, this plot would be featured in several movies or levels where each Icon does their own schtick, control a bunch of monsters from 05’s event, and are picked off by the heroes one by one until the final or penultimate stage where they reach Jack himself, and then Mary does something (assuming she’s not extra dead or imprisoned at this point). Maybe an encounter with the gods later, IDK. And as for the TV option, was thinking of something as a “Monster of the Week” show harkening back to shows like Buffy with the Icons serving as the “Arc Villains” of the first two seasons popping in periodically between episodes here and there.

For me it goes past unrealistic or unlikely, and is just entirely unworkable. By the time that you have the Icons as actual characters with personalities, interests, deeper relationships, and dialogue, it will have to be an entirely different character at that point. They were designed to be depthless.

Iron Man and Darth Vader were created and fleshed out as characters first, and are now so recognizable that they can be the mascot for a Coke can or cereal. The opposite approach is much more difficult to square. I just don't believe a character like The Caretaker or Director can be fleshed out without significantly diluting their use as a generic scary mascot; and their core ideas are too generic to come off as anything but derivative in a larger work anyways.

But ... I also love the energy and passion that fuels fanfiction and art and stuff like that. So I will never begrudge someone for being interested in creating their own interpretation of these characters. They are so vague that you kinda have to create your own new version in your head to make them work, and that's the space where someone can bring their own creativity and inventiveness into it. I think that's all really fun and cool!

 

[Blysthon]

For me it goes past unrealistic or unlikely, and is just entirely unworkable. By the time that you have the Icons as actual characters with personalities, interests, deeper relationships, and dialogue, it will have to be an entirely different character at that point. They were designed to be depthless.

Iron Man and Darth Vader were created and fleshed out as characters first, and are now so recognizable that they can be the mascot for a Coke can or cereal. The opposite approach is much more difficult to square. I just don't believe a character like The Caretaker or Director can be fleshed out without significantly diluting their use as a generic scary mascot; and their core ideas are too generic to come off as anything but derivative in a larger work anyways.

But ... I also love the energy and passion that fuels fanfiction and art and stuff like that. So I will never begrudge someone for being interested in creating their own interpretation of these characters. They are so vague that you kinda have to create your own new version in your head to make them work, and that's the space where someone can bring their own creativity and inventiveness into it. I think that's all really fun and cool!

I think the icons can Get movies, I mean they are becoming popular each day. And next year is the 35th anniversary. So no telling what the future may bring. Also the jack the clown show is in talks right now, so movies could eventually happen.

 

[Legacy]

The only icon with enough unique storytelling depth to really succeed is Oddfellow, but I don’t see him getting a movie for several not-so-obvious/very-obvious reasons.

The rest of the icons are literally contrivances built from other, more interesting characters.

 

[Blysthon]

The only icon with enough unique storytelling depth to really succeed is Oddfellow, but I don’t see him getting a movie for several not-so-obvious/very-obvious reasons.

The rest of the icons are literally contrivances built from other, more interesting characters.

I mean we don’t know what the future holds, but we will see in time. The event is getting more popular over the years. So we just have to wait and see

 

[pumpkinbot343]

Maybe they could build the movies or whatever by placing the Icons more “in the shadows”, by not really focusing on them screen-time wise, but more like Freddy Krueger in his first film in that they barely show up. I mean he wasn’t terribly interesting in the original anyway.

 

[Blysthon]

Maybe they could build the movies or whatever by placing the Icons more “in the shadows”, by not really focusing on them screen-time wise, but more like Freddy Krueger in his first film in that they barely show up. I mean he wasn’t terribly interesting in the original anyway.

This can work, Also diving into their Originals I would love to see a Tomb of the ancients film focusing on a new antagonist(Icon) a non human character. Snake man

 

[Legacy]

I mean we don’t know what the future holds, but we will see in time. The event is getting more popular over the years. So we just have to wait and see

I mean, the last I heard about the HHN movie, they couldn’t crack the story. That, right there, should tell you the focus isn’t retelling an icon’s story but that the focus is the event itself.

And, to a degree, that’s the fundamental disconnect between what HHN lorehounds want and what Universal cares about. Universal wants a film that promotes the event. That’s the unifying experience across the parks that has longevity. A film about a single character (or a handful of characters) that only appeared in Orlando several years ago is supremely niche and limits the audience.

 

[Blysthon]

I mean, the last I heard about the HHN movie, they couldn’t crack the story. That, right there, should tell you the focus isn’t retelling an icon’s story but that the focus is the event itself.

And, to a degree, that’s the fundamental disconnect between what HHN lorehounds want and what Universal cares about. Universal wants a film that promotes the event. That’s the unifying experience across the parks that has longevity. A film about a single character (or a handful of characters) that only appeared in Orlando several years ago is supremely niche and limits the audience.

It opens new opportunities though, I think A movie focusing on Pumpkin Lord taking over the event can Work. As people don’t know who are the real scare actors, as they are being killed from behind the scenes by The God of Halloweens Followers. Including Guests too, as people start to realize it’s real.

 

[Legacy]

It opens new opportunities though, I think A movie focusing on Pumpkin Lord taking over the event can Work. As people don’t know who are the real scare actors, as they are being killed from behind the scenes by The God of Halloweens Followers. Including Guests too, as people start to realize it’s real.

I know you’re high on the gourd, but he is the least interesting story option for a movie about a supernatural entity taking over a theme park.

 

[Blysthon]

I know you’re high on the gourd, but he is the least interesting story option for a movie about a supernatural entity taking over a theme park.

Your right Pumpkin Lord should have his own Movie, but not set at the event. I think if they were going to do the movie about the event. They can focus on the lantern.

 

[GA-MBIT]

If you search "Killer Clown", "Scary Old Lady", "Pumpkin Monster" on Netflix or some other streaming service with a ton of fluff, you'll find lots of movies that would be effectively identical to a film revolving around Jack, Caretaker, and Pumpkin Lord. Just replace the name and design and that's quite literally about as good as those could be.

The movies are going to be generic, low-budget, D-grade slashers with derivative tired tropes as the villains. The movies you want already exist. They just aren't very good, and without the connection to the character design you like, there's actually nothing to latch onto here.

Just watch Hellfest honestly haha. There's no way that a branded HHN film could go harder or end up better than that movie and still remain an effective commercial for the event.

 

[Blysthon]

If you search "Killer Clown", "Scary Old Lady", "Pumpkin Monster" on Netflix or some other streaming service with a ton of fluff, you'll find lots of movies that would be effectively identical to a film revolving around Jack, Caretaker, and Pumpkin Lord. Just replace the name and design and that's quite literally about as good as those could be.

The movies are going to be generic, low-budget, D-grade slashers with derivative tired tropes as the villains. The movies you want already exist. They just aren't very good, and without the connection to the character design you like, there's actually nothing to latch onto here.

Just watch Hellfest honestly haha. There's no way that a branded HHN film could go harder or end up better than that movie and still remain an effective commercial for the event.

the fandom is getting bigger, and Halloween Horror Nights is quite popular. Also I watched Hellfest I loved it. But seeing those tired Tubi movies. Has left me empty. I crave for Halloween Horror Nights content tied to originals and the icons. I want theatrical releases of a story that’s made in quality. And ties into the Lore perfectly.

 

[pumpkinbot343]

There’s the obvious copyright problems for the former (though I don’t know if that will affect the “film” or “TV” side of things), but I think Bloody Mary and The Usher are probably the best choices to adapt for some sort of work inspired by HHN since Mary has a fully detailed backstory and character arc that could write itself for multiple episodes for a more psychological drama type of horror; adding with already established “heroes” with Boris and LT; and there’s not really a villain like the Usher or any horror movies about “haunted theaters”. Alternatively, maybe the Usher could host an anthology movie, or better yet some sort of crossover movie or game featuring a bunch of different horror characters duking it out, maybe optionally with Usher himself being the main villain. A film about Jack’s original backstory in 2000 could be cool too.

 

[Blysthon]

There’s the obvious copyright problems for the former (though I don’t know if that will affect the “film” side of things), but I think Bloody Mary and The Usher are probably the best choices to adapt for some sort of work inspired by HHN since Mary has a fully detailed backstory and character arc that could write itself for multiple episodes for a more psychological drama type of horror; adding with already established “heroes” with Boris and LT; and there’s not really a villain like the Usher or any horror movies about “haunted theaters”. Alternatively, maybe the Usher could host an anthology movie, or better yet some sort of crossover movie or game featuring a bunch of different horror characters duking it out, maybe optionally with Usher himself being the main villain. A film about Jack’s original backstory in 2000 could be cool too.

Exactly this, this is what I’m talking about. That Everything’s connected. And have stand-alone films leading up to the crossover and next saga of Characters down the latter. Pumpkin Lord will Work For A R-Rated Movie set on Halloween Night. And then more Films down the line like tomb of ancients introducing new Characters(Icons) Further

 

[Legacy]

the fandom is getting bigger, and Halloween Horror Nights is quite popular. Also I watched Hellfest I loved it. But seeing those tired Tubi movies. Has left me empty. I crave for Halloween Horror Nights content tied to originals and the icons. I want theatrical releases of a story that’s made in quality. And ties into the Lore perfectly.

And you’re not going to get it because 1) the characters are not deep or unique enough to carry a film by themselves, 2) the lore isn’t popular enough for the general audience to justify centering films around it, 3) Universal—as a creative entity—is going to prioritize the marketing/advertising potential of the HHN name and tie that to parks.

You say the fandom is getting bigger how are you actually defining “the fandom.” Are you referring to how many folks ask about the lore on Reddit/Discord? If that’s your measure, it actually isn’t that more active than it’s been for twenty years. Or are you referring to the total number of people attending the event? That number IS increasing, but it’s not lore and original characters driving that increase. It’s IPs.

Universal recognizes that producing a wide-release film focused on Pennywise Jack, Harley Quinn Chance, Pumpkinhead Pumpkin Lord, Mary Shaw the Storyteller, Phantom of the Opera Usher or any other icon will immediately get dismissed as an imitation. That’s because those characters ARE imitations. Their individual lores are also fairly shallow and contrived as well. The only thing that actually makes them compelling at all is the fact they’re taking over a theme park. If a film removes the theme park aspect, then everything about the icon becomes hollow.